Shredder 13 vs Komodo 14 Positional

[AdminX]

I wanted to see how the Komodo 14 Positional personality would fair versus Shredder 13, which has been known to be a positional type engine in terms of style of play. I have only played 3 games so far. The current results are 2 draws and 1 win for Komodo. The games were played on my laptop in the Banksia GUI with each engine using only 1 thread , Hash 256, Syzygybases and TC 0f 30 minutes.

The one win was a interesting games that was being played on alternating flanks. In the middle game, I got the feeling that Shredder really did not know what to do, as Komodo kept coming up with good ideas to keep the fight going. There really was not much of and endgame to watch as by that point Komodo had already outplayed Shredder into positional lost state.

[pgn]
[Event "Banksia game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.06.07"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Deep Shredder 13"]
[Black "Komodo 14 Positional"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C50"]
[PlyCount "150"]
[EventDate "2020.??.??"]
[TimeControl "40/1800+1:0"]

1. e4 {95.04/0 137340569} e5 {37.04/0 37758651} 2. Nf3 {0.25/27 1.0 43317782}
d6 {48.00/0 51527828} 3. d4 {0.19/27 4.0 60547084} exd4 {46.04/0 50482836} 4.
Nxd4 {24.00/0 87552843} Nf6 {60.03/0 93935107; C41: Philidor, exchange
variation} 5. Nc3 {23.03/0 103148650} Be7 {23.00/0 50598024} 6. Bc4 {16.02/0
46624658} O-O {217.00/0 241023605} 7. O-O {0.19/29 0.0 262477349} Nc6 {73.00/0
79312246} 8. Bf4 {44.02/0 54576014} Nd7 {84.06/0 96533821. C50: Hungarian
Defence and Giuoco Pianissimo.} 9. Nd5 {54.07/0 70145687} Nb6 {-0.33/31 0.0
61934753} 10. Nxc6 {72.08/0 90006192} bxc6 {-0.23/32 0.0 80847860. White has
an edge.} 11. Nxe7+ {54.07/0 69214610} Qxe7 {-0.33/30 0.0 61243706} 12. Bd3 {
44.05/0 [#] 56056349} a5 $146 {81.09/0 142463522} ({Predecessor:} 12... c5 13.
c3 f6 14. Re1 a5 15. Bg3 Qf7 16. f4 Be6 17. b3 Rfe8 18. Bc2 Rad8 {1/2-1/2 (44)
Wahlbom,M-Hoen,R (2380) Copenhagen 1977}) 13. Re1 {104.04/0 127678467} f6 {
52.02/0 59939650} 14. b3 {75.08/0 98613369} a4 {41.06/0 48654210} 15. Bg3 {
36.02/0 46904698} Be6 {47.03/0 55580315} 16. f4 {22.03/0 91458665} c5 {112.09/
0 162248537} 17. Qe2 {74.08/0 225525924} Qd7 {-0.36/29 0.0 89169846} 18. c4 {
91.07/0 123401033} f5 {67.07/0 84605111} 19. e5 {71.05/0 97608210} d5 {35.06/0
43292597} 20. Bf2 {0.41/29 1.2 48160054} d4 {35.08/0 40863852} 21. Reb1 {
52.04/0 66172804} Rfb8 {0.00/33 0.0 62410067} 22. Qc2 {74.03/0 98342983} Nc8 {
62.02/0 77255324} 23. Bh4 {48.04/0 66510544} Kf7 {0.00/37 0.0 62290478} 24. Qd1
{149.09/0 205135358} Kg8 {35.06/0 43842506} 25. Be1 {30.02/0 41157287} axb3 {
-0.09/32 6.8 45185925} 26. axb3 {34.03/0 47704582} Rxa1 {111.03/0 176104034}
27. Rxa1 {56.03/0 72757502} Ne7 {-0.02/33 4.8 68256199} 28. Ra7 {80.01/0
118037209} Nc6 {-0.11/36 0.0 99562376} 29. Ra3 {25.01/0 34500458} Qe8 {81.06/0
100712121} 30. Be2 {26.02/0 36835711} g5 $1 {38.02/0 48466060} 31. Bd2 {
29.01/0 39059024} g4 {0.00/32 4.6 41750275} 32. Qb1 {21.09/0 38323382} Kg7 {
34.06/0 46044409} 33. Bd3 {41.07/0 62284453} Qf8 {0.00/36 0.0 55473974} 34. Be1
{32.07/0 48886601} h5 {58.09/0 83530811} 35. Ra6 {32.00/0 48751414} Rb6 {
50.08/0 72577418} 36. Ra1 {0.41/30 5.2 40068873} Kg6 {36.09/0 49315557} 37. Ra3
{61.01/0 90967725} Qh6 $1 {40.01/0 54360280} 38. g3 {25.04/0 37558215} h4 {
20.07/0 63734726} 39. Bf1 {-0.81/13 62971363} (39. Qd1 $11 {-0.05/13 keeps the
balance.} Kg7 40. Ra8) 39... h3 $1 $17 {54.08/0 75602146} 40. Qa2 {23.00/0
35002885} Qg7 {67.01/0 97238618} 41. Ra6 {138.02/0 212140974} Qd7 {0.54/41 0.0
206877653} 42. Rxb6 {58.03/0 97639111} cxb6 {36.04/0 143344398} 43. Qa8 {
20.02/0 74905998} Kg7 {46.06/0 [#] 99832191. Threatens to win with ...d3.} 44.
Bd3 {42.01/0 73515688} Qc7 {33.06/0 114819294} 45. Qe8 {-1.46/17 200491596} ({
White should try} 45. Kf2 $15 {-0.68/11}) 45... Nd8 $1 {66.03/0 100617848} 46.
b4 {47.07/0 79411239} Bf7 {10.06/0 89269593} 47. Qb5 {127.09/0 238122299} Qb7 {
60.00/0 [#] 93658662} 48. Bf1 {-1.30/36 8.3 118053334} Qe4 {60.03/0 119088727}
49. Bf2 {284.03/0 594622225} Nc6 $40 {1.86/38 0.0 464324375. Black has strong
attack.} 50. Qxb6 {123.05/0 237630903} ({Wrong is} 50. bxc5 $2 d3 $19) 50...
Bxc4 $1 {2.49/35 0.0 226026061} 51. Qc7+ {189.08/0 363253727} Kf8 $1 {2.61/37
0.0 354553059} 52. Qd6+ {58.08/0 119316839} Ke8 {12.05/0 134812210. Hoping for
...Bxf1.} 53. Qg6+ {-2.35/15 144132243} (53. bxc5 $17 {-1.39/18 was necessary.}
Bxf1 54. Kxf1) 53... Kd8 {165.00/0 291510825} 54. Qd6+ {-3.06/15 316470682} (
54. bxc5 {-1.81/16 keeps fighting.} Kc8 55. Qd6) 54... Kc8 $1 $19 {20.01/0
90525587. And now ...Bxf1 would win.} 55. Qf8+ {-3.50/18 75109687} (55. bxc5 {
-2.44/15 might work better.} d3 56. Qf8+ Nd8 57. Qd6) 55... Kb7 {28.00/0
90195228} 56. Qxc5 {22.08/0 102832587} Bd5 $1 {21.03/0 85677136} (56... Bxf1
57. Kxf1 d3 58. Qb5+ Kc8 59. Qa6+ Kd7 60. Qa2 $19) 57. Bxd4 $2 {-6.56/11 5.5
57371263} ({Better chances, however still losing was with ...} 57. Ba6+ {
-3.41/18} Kxa6 58. b5+ {Double Attack} Ka5 59. bxc6+ Ka6 60. Qa3+ Kb5 61. Qb2+
Kxc6 62. Qc1+ Kb6 63. Qb2+ Kc7 64. Qc1+ Kd8 65. Kf1 Qh1+ 66. Bg1 Qg2+ 67. Ke1
Qxg1+ 68. Kd2 Qe3+ 69. Kc2 Qc3+ 70. Kb1 Be4+ 71. Ka2 Qxc1 72. Kb3 Bc6 73. e6
Ke7 74. Kb4 Qc3#) 57... Qxd4+ {67.09/0 154811472} ({Stronger than} 57... Nxd4
58. Qe7+ Kc8 59. Qe8+ Kc7 60. Qe7+ Kc8 61. Qe8+ Kc7 62. Qe7+ Kc8 $11) 58. Qxd4
{-17.48/15 0.0 12494} Nxd4 {41.08/0 75675635} 59. Kf2 {40.03/0 165455037} Nf3 {
13.80/34 5.2 89216404} 60. e6 {55.03/0 122249184} Kc6 {16.92/32 0.0 99449051}
61. Ke3 {33.03/0 68017242} Nxh2 {17.08/0 33524259} 62. Bd3 {-279.66/29 3.1
45406102} Bxe6 {250.00/33 7.3 12996042} 63. Kf2 {15.03/0 51336838} Kd6 {
250.00/36 0.0 28432092} 64. Bb5 {55.08/0 48246358} Bd5 {250.00/27 7.3 13285701}
65. Ba6 {37.07/0 104032789} Nf3 {33.03/0 M+44/26 67607396} 66. Bc8 {30.01/0
M-48/37 162180855} Nd2 {12.04/0 M+14/26 23156835} 67. Kg1 {14.03/0 M-13/30
37217279} Be4 {M+11/30 0.0 27204217} 68. Ba6 {28.01/0 73096249} Kd5 {M+8/34 8.
7 19368885. White must now prevent ...Kc6.} 69. Bc8 {10.03/0 M-7/32 24284331}
Kd4 {M+7/50 8.8 29976437. ( -> ...Ke3)} 70. Bxf5 {M-6/12 0.0 1014} Bxf5 {
M+6/91 9.2 23778246} 71. Kf2 {M-5/10 0.0 2367} h2 {M+5/99 0.2 900371. Black
mates.} 72. b5 {M-4/8 0.0 956} h1=Q {M+4/99 0.2 555864} 73. Ke2 {M-3/6 0.0 367}
Qg2+ {M+3/99 0.0 23397} 74. Kd1 {M-2/4 0.0 228} Nf3 {M+2/99 0.0 4269} 75. b6 {
18 M-1/2 0.0} Qd2# {mate M+1/99 0.0 3465. Accuracy: White = 70%, Black = 78%.}
0-1
[/pgn]

[BrendanJNorman]

Interesting game.

I believe it shows the difference between "old" super engines and modern ones.

Shredder seemed to think it was doing well due to the bishop pair and superior pawn structure being weighed too highly in its eval.

Modern super engines know all the exceptions to these simplistic rules.

It is clear just by comparing their respective evaluations in key positions.

It would be fun (and instructive) to talk to a GM about this topic.

[AdminX]

Interesting game.

I believe it shows the difference between "old" super engines and modern ones.

Shredder seemed to think it was doing well due to the bishop pair and superior pawn structure being weighed too highly in its eval.

Modern super engines know all the exceptions to these simplistic rules.

It is clear just by comparing their respective evaluations in key positions.

It would be fun (and instructive) to talk to a GM about this topic.

Agreed Brendan, I was really impressed to see Komodo play 30 ... g5! strong and simple positional idea.

[d]1r2q1k1/2p3pp/2n1b3/2p1Pp2/2Pp1P2/RP6/4B1PP/3QB1K1 b - - 0 30

[Ovyron]

Note this isn't Shredder, the last Shredder was version 12.

Version 13 was basically a new engine from scratch with Shredder's ideas as a base and improvements from Ippolit, Stockfish and others from the time. Nothing wrong with this but if you want to see how "Shredder" played, you'd need to go back to Shredder 12 (or maybe Shredder 10, or 8, its true style was diluted from version to version.)

[AdminX]

I found an error where Shredder was not loading Shredderbases in the Banksia GUI. I corrected the problem by adding the correct code to the Json file, and then pointed it to the location where it could find the bases.ini file.



Then I ran another game where the following position was reached out of the opening.

[d]r1b1kb1r/1p2qppp/1np5/pB1pN3/P2Pn3/2P2N2/1PQ2PPP/R1B1K2R w KQkq - 0 11

Komodo was expecting the bishop to retreat, but Shredder was contemplating capturing on c6 which it did. Reaching the following position out of the opening.

[d]n1bk1b1r/4qppp/8/p2p4/P2Pn3/2P2N2/1PQ2PPP/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 14

After a little more maneuvering and exchanges they reached the following interesting endgame position.

[d]3kn3/2n3pp/5p2/p2P4/P2P4/8/1P3PPP/5RK1 w - - 0 27

A position probably better suited for Komodo's Endgame personality. However you have to love those material balanced positions.

[pgn]
[Event "Banksia game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2020.06.09"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Deep Shredder 13 "]
[Black "Komodo 14 Positional"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C41"]
[Opening "Philidor's defence"]
[Termination "mate"]
[Time "18:39:15"]
[TimeControl "40/1800+1"]

1.e4 { +0.16/28 94.6 137340569 } 1...e5 { -0.07/29 34.3 37758651 } 2.Nf3 { +0.22/27 6.1 49116175 } 2...d6 { -0.16/30 41.0 51527828; C41: Philidor's defence } 3.c3 { +0.19/26 39.4 96136752 } 3...Nf6 { -0.15/29 43.3 48408302 } 4.Qc2 { +0.11/27 35.6 88576302 } 4...d5 { -0.10/30 11.6 54173900 } 5.d4 { +0.17/26 36.1 55755241 } 5...Nxe4 { -0.06/32 19.8 63418847 } 6.Nxe5 { +0.11/27 39.1 47296402 } 6...Nd7 { +0.00/31 1.0 45813584 } 7.Nd2 { +0.06/28 74.1 90454180 } 7...Qe7 { +0.09/31 44.4 50051919 } 8.Ndf3 { +0.10/28 25.0 82307041 } 8...Nb6 { -0.20/33 115.8 165293958 } 9.a4 { +0.08/26 58.5 67090622 } 9...a5 { +0.00/30 49.9 58963826 } 10.Bb5+ { +0.09/28 18.7 86167949 } 10...c6 { +0.10/30 31.5 58621356 } 11.Nxc6 { +0.16/30 27.4 76823370 } 11...bxc6 { +0.05/29 44.9 53053142 } 12.Bxc6+ { +0.21/28 16.6 82066173 } 12...Kd8 { -0.17/31 61.7 92867101 } 13.Bxa8 { +0.26/28 54.1 71597760 } 13...Nxa8 { -0.17/29 1.3 63979810 } 14.Ne5 { +0.26/29 52.7 67213101 } 14...Qc7 { +0.00/29 40.0 47222287 } 15.Qb3 { +0.18/30 83.1 163376206 } 15...Bb7 { -0.18/34 0.0 99305023 } 16.O-O { +0.23/29 102.0 136066155 } 16...f6 { -0.22/34 18.1 146489498 } 17.Nd3 { +0.57/28 102.2 113786680 } 17...Bd6 { +0.00/35 0.0 114257523 } 18.Bf4 { +0.77/30 49.4 65874309 } 18...Bxf4 { +0.00/33 30.4 92256233 } 19.Nxf4 { +0.57/32 30.3 82110479 } 19...Re8 { -0.12/35 23.5 66042237 } 20.Rae1 { +0.58/32 24.0 65154544 } 20...Bc6 { +0.00/34 37.1 71190583 } 21.Nxd5 { +0.64/35 59.7 128661313 } 21...Qb7 { +0.00/37 52.1 69822088 } 22.Qxb7 { +0.74/35 23.2 114797783 } 22...Bxb7 { +0.00/38 36.2 80387338 } 23.c4 { +0.74/35 13.1 71047136 } 23...Bxd5 { -0.21/37 50.4 84084094 } 24.cxd5 { +0.69/36 64.0 169743051 } 24...Nc7 { -0.24/38 0.5 87974740 } 25.Re2 { +0.74/36 41.1 61937625 } 25...Nd6 { +0.00/39 65.7 86374699 } 26.Rxe8+ { +0.72/37 4.1 101511676 } 26...Ndxe8 { -0.14/41 131.3 197878998 } 27.Rb1 { +0.85/35 77.1 135146661 } 27...Kc8 { -0.18/43 209.6 325760028 } 28.Kf1 { +0.96/33 71.9 125068680 } 28...Nd6 { +0.00/37 36.7 55521811 } 29.b4 { +1.00/33 55.6 96056732 } 29...axb4 { -0.24/36 44.4 69028007 } 30.Rxb4 { +1.01/34 18.5 107696349 } 30...Nxd5 { -0.38/36 30.0 76712686 } 31.Rb3 { +1.09/31 25.3 93029550 } 31...Nc7 { -0.40/39 196.4 351507663 } 32.Ke2 { +1.15/37 0.0 329263655 } 32...Ne6 { -0.35/36 84.1 135399582 } 33.Rb4 { +1.15/34 16.1 169292972 } 33...Nf4+ { -0.20/33 32.1 50600599 } 34.Kf3 { +1.16/32 16.3 80993094 } 34...Nd5 { -0.35/34 21.1 59102278 } 35.Rb2 { +1.06/32 70.8 148783058 } 35...Ne7 { -0.27/37 0.0 108152926 } 36.Ke2 { +1.17/33 64.8 104818762 } 36...Kc7 { -0.36/36 0.0 100571864 } 37.Kd3 { +1.22/33 107.2 177107880 } 37...Nb7 { -0.39/39 0.0 167213160 } 38.h4 { +1.22/33 29.0 45049170 } 38...Kc6 { -0.41/36 100.8 160937777 } 39.g4 { +1.15/34 0.0 158042647 } 39...Nd5 { -0.45/33 54.2 82921131 } 40.Rc2+ { +1.29/30 46.4 79514791 } 40...Kd7 { -0.52/32 0.0 74559179 } 41.Rc1 { +1.27/29 42.2 8852157 } 41...Nc7 { -0.51/34 0.0 67297859 } 42.Ke4 { +1.34/32 49.2 84592586 } 42...Nd6+ { -0.55/35 168.4 270708935 } 43.Kf3 { +1.33/37 0.0 152725092 } 43...Ne6 { -0.56/37 178.3 288310408 } 44.Ke3 { +1.51/32 114.4 203325293 } 44...Nc7 { -0.76/35 0.0 187756904 } 45.a5 { +1.58/31 94.1 166315479 } 45...Ndb5 { -0.79/36 101.2 321233582 } 46.Ke4 { +1.37/33 25.6 225301245 } 46...Kd6 { -0.72/31 53.1 84706145 } 47.Re1 { +1.63/32 136.2 240451512 } 47...Nc3+ { -0.85/35 128.8 209962073 } 48.Kd3 { +1.89/34 27.3 276217847 } 48...N3b5 { -1.14/33 49.6 119830953 } 49.Ra1 { +1.94/32 39.1 158219688 } 49...Na6 { -1.23/37 63.4 167613055 } 50.Kc4 { +2.59/32 108.1 182111638 } 50...Na7 { -1.93/36 0.0 167766216 } 51.g5 { +2.83/34 209.3 253408900 } 51...fxg5 { -2.16/40 0.0 344958940 } 52.hxg5 { +3.22/32 64.0 116236440 } 52...Nc6 { -2.68/37 96.8 268966148 } 53.Ra3 { +3.55/33 37.1 169811938 } 53...Ne7 { -2.93/37 106.7 241529409 } 54.Rh3 { +4.23/35 9.3 223504857 } 54...Nc7 { -3.28/34 23.2 52176766 } 55.Rxh7 { +5.06/34 97.6 225774282 } 55...Nf5 { -3.73/37 0.0 167326292 } 56.Rh8 { +5.84/33 228.1 434562541 } 56...Kc6 { -3.91/39 0.0 396484630 } 57.Rb8 { +6.33/32 85.2 155630834 } 57...Nd6+ { -5.04/36 59.0 234509186 } 58.Kd3 { +6.43/33 76.1 250639792 } 58...Kd7 { -5.23/36 0.0 128623534 } 59.Rg8 { +7.63/30 114.4 216790378 } 59...Nf5 { -6.61/33 70.1 333487810 } 60.Ke4 { +8.80/25 77.0 146050068 } 60...Nd6+ { -7.71/25 52.4 93387898 } 61.Ke5 { +6.75/21 20.8 40214996 } 61...Nce8 { -11.68/31 120.6 274201857 } 62.a6 { +12.53/27 23.6 40373925 } 62...Nb5 { -17.56/32 106.8 231186030 } 63.d5 { +17.70/26 14.5 23205491 } 63...Ke7 { -250.00/28 32.3 58786416 } 64.g6 { +19.05/27 0.0 50528935 } 64...Na3 { -250.00/33 3.9 6844587 } 65.d6+ { +279.73/27 12.9 23615269 } 65...Kd7 { -250.00/29 2.7 4789427 } 66.Rxe8 { +279.85/36 9.5 21367709 } 66...Kxe8 { -250.00/41 2.8 4304683 } 67.a7 { +279.87/50 11.4 26249467 } 67...Nc4+ { -250.00/58 0.0 20440870 } 68.Ke6 { +279.89/57 12.6 21729765 } 68...Nb6 { -250.00/64 0.0 18657051 } 69.d7+ { +279.91/67 12.7 30801153 } 69...Kd8 { -250.00/62 3.9 5904919 } 70.Kf7 { +279.93/71 15.6 50955764 } 70...Na8 { -250.00/60 0.0 24490476 } 71.Kxg7 { +279.95/80 12.1 23167818 } 71...Nb6 { -250.00/59 0.0 19851251 } 72.a8=Q+ { +279.97/49 11.7 21287830 } 72...Nxa8 { -250.00/99 0.0 2653 } 73.Kf7 { M+20/36 14.1 32017483 } 73...Kxd7 { M-1000/37 0.0 24725114 } 74.g7 { M+20/33 11.6 26646066 } 74...Nc7 { M-31/24 5.4 32342713 } 75.g8=Q { M+18/36 0.0 7663993 } 75...Kc6 { M-17/24 8.6 17326316 } 76.f4 { M+16/31 2.1 5316356 } 76...Kc5 { M-16/22 10.5 20946681 } 77.f5 { M+14/27 0.3 736930 } 77...Nd5 { M-13/22 12.7 30882008 } 78.Qg3 { M+13/25 0.0 231831 } 78...Kd4 { M-10/25 10.3 26305957 } 79.Ke6 { M+12/23 0.0 99111 } 79...Nc3 { M-9/27 13.0 31326414 } 80.f6 { M+11/21 0.0 111419 } 80...Ne2 { M-8/34 13.8 42163542 } 81.Qg4+ { M+10/19 0.0 78990 } 81...Kd3 { M-7/43 10.8 39292207 } 82.f7 { M+9/17 0.0 28970 } 82...Nd4+ { M-6/73 10.4 38444361 } 83.Kd5 { M+8/15 0.0 12150 } 83...Nc2 { M-6/54 10.5 37645701 } 84.Qg3+ { M+7/13 0.0 9222 } 84...Ne3+ { M-5/99 1.3 4503335 } 85.Ke6 { M+6/11 0.0 4054 } 85...Ke2 { M-4/99 0.2 619412 } 86.f8=Q { M+5/9 0.0 3116 } 86...Nd1 { M-3/99 0.1 159653 } 87.Qff3+ { M+4/7 0.0 3007 } 87...Kd2 { M-3/5 0.0 512 } 88.Qa3 { M+3/5 0.0 700 } 88...Nb2 { M-2/99 0.0 8632 } 89.Qxb2+ { M+2/3 0.0 390 } 89...Kd1 { M-1/99 0.0 197 } 90.Qg1# { M+1/1 0.0 43 } 1-0
[/pgn]