Werewolf wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:57 pm
Because the Neural Net in Lc0 is bigger than the one in SF NNUE, do we have any examples of where Lc0 evaluates a position better?
I'm thinking of positions where a deep AB search won't help much, such as blocked positions.
Openings. Positionally in the openings, it seems Lc0 > SF NNUE > SF AB > other AB.
Let see How Stockfish NNUE handle a 1 move Opening that are balanced like 1.h3 or 1.g3 which does NOT give an edge to White since the first move only occupy the 3rd rank. Let see what happens NEXT game? https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
Please do NOT think that 1.h3 automatically give Black the edge ==>
This game was played between Smallfish = Stockfish for iphone and Komodo 13.3 using My Dell inspiron 22 All in one. I fed the first move 1.h3 the Clemenz Opening knowing that none of the two had the best variations programmed to their opening book, I just wanted to see how both engines and iphone Xs Max versus my Dell handle this not too well known opening.
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:55 am
Stockfish nnue has a secret weapon. The Kamehameha blast. Of course, he has to go to level 5 before he can use it. You don't just go Kamehameha blasting stuff willy-nilly.
At the very end it will be LCZero Vs Stockfish NNUE, but I predict a very close encounter of the 3rd kind, LCZero from Planet 1140b Vs StockFish NNUE from Planet Earth, Now I am more convinced than ever https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
I agree. I just played 200 games with Stockfish 12 Vs Lc0 26.2. Stockfish 12 won by only 24 Elo in 200 games at 3m+2s. And in testing. We can see how badly Stockfish NNUE has scaled in past testing. At longer time controls.
Both are the best chess engines, and the winner may only be decided by hardware and time controls.
The sprinter Stockfish 12 vs. the marathon runner Lc0. Who wins the race. May depend on the distance of the race!
Lc0 is clearly improving faster then Stockfish at this point in time. Even at 3m+2s time controls vs past matches at the same time controls.
Result:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
# name games wins draws losses score los% elo+/-
1. Stockfish 12 200 16 182 2 107.0 100.0 24.4
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 200 2 182 16 93.0 0.0 -24.4
Cross table:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
# name score games 1 2
1. Stockfish 12 107.0 200 x =====1==1===1====================1======1========11========================1==========================1============================================1====1===1=========1==0================1===1=1==0====
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 93.0 200 =====0==0===0====================0======0========00========================0==========================0============================================0====0===0=========0==1================0===0=0==1==== x
Tech:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tech (average nodes, depths, time/m per move, others per game), counted for computing moves only, ignored moves with zero nodes:
# name nodes/m NPS depth/m time/m moves time
1. Stockfish 12 125173K 26565996 42.5 4.7 54.1 255.1
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 101K 20342 10.0 4.9 54.1 267.2
all --- 61216K 12984844 26.3 4.8 54.1 261.2
For years ppl come up with the BS theory that A/B engines tuned in micro-bullet would be weak in LTC and for years they are so bluntly proven wrong. Impact of eval on horizon effects is minimal and it doesn't change whether you search to depth 20 or depth 100. SF-NN search is SF and SF is proven to scale better than Lc0 (and as a matter of fact any MCTS engine) in LTC. Ergo SF-NN scales better than Lc0 in LTC.
Your claims are simply BS reflecting your cluelessness in the matter. You effectively draw conclusions from STC (just because it's not micro-bullet but blitz instead) with a sample size that is a joke.
The result in the superfinal will be much worse sweep than last year. And then ppl like you would be astonished and would come up with all kind of ridiculous excuses to justify what is basically their cluelessness.
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:55 am
Stockfish nnue has a secret weapon. The Kamehameha blast. Of course, he has to go to level 5 before he can use it. You don't just go Kamehameha blasting stuff willy-nilly.
At the very end it will be LCZero Vs Stockfish NNUE, but I predict a very close encounter of the 3rd kind, LCZero from Planet 1140b Vs StockFish NNUE from Planet Earth, Now I am more convinced than ever https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
I agree. I just played 200 games with Stockfish 12 Vs Lc0 26.2. Stockfish 12 won by only 24 Elo in 200 games at 3m+2s. And in testing. We can see how badly Stockfish NNUE has scaled in past testing. At longer time controls.
Both are the best chess engines, and the winner may only be decided by hardware and time controls.
The sprinter Stockfish 12 vs. the marathon runner Lc0. Who wins the race. May depend on the distance of the race!
Lc0 is clearly improving faster then Stockfish at this point in time. Even at 3m+2s time controls vs past matches at the same time controls.
Result:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
# name games wins draws losses score los% elo+/-
1. Stockfish 12 200 16 182 2 107.0 100.0 24.4
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 200 2 182 16 93.0 0.0 -24.4
Cross table:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
# name score games 1 2
1. Stockfish 12 107.0 200 x =====1==1===1====================1======1========11========================1==========================1============================================1====1===1=========1==0================1===1=1==0====
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 93.0 200 =====0==0===0====================0======0========00========================0==========================0============================================0====0===0=========0==1================0===0=0==1==== x
Tech:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tech (average nodes, depths, time/m per move, others per game), counted for computing moves only, ignored moves with zero nodes:
# name nodes/m NPS depth/m time/m moves time
1. Stockfish 12 125173K 26565996 42.5 4.7 54.1 255.1
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 101K 20342 10.0 4.9 54.1 267.2
all --- 61216K 12984844 26.3 4.8 54.1 261.2
For years ppl come up with the BS theory that A/B engines tuned in micro-bullet would be weak in LTC and for years they are so bluntly proven wrong. Impact of eval on horizon effects is minimal and it doesn't change whether you search to depth 20 or depth 100. SF-NN search is SF and SF is proven to scale better than Lc0 (and as a matter of fact any MCTS engine) in LTC. Ergo SF-NN scales better than Lc0 in LTC.
Your claims are simply BS reflecting your cluelessness in the matter. You effectively draw conclusions from STC (just because it's not micro-bullet but blitz instead) with a sample size that is a joke.
The result in the superfinal will be much worse sweep than last year. And then ppl like you would be astonished and would come up with all kind of ridiculous excuses to justify what is basically their cluelessness.
The only one that is clueless here is you. As I test at the longer time controls, as well as short time controls. Along with 1 core testing, and up to 32 threads.
And I am not talking about A/B engine only testing at micro-bullet. And I never have. I am talking about NNUE! And my sample size is huge. This is not my only test. I test non stop.
My conclusion is what the data is showing us, and if it changes all will see that also. I test openly, and to video.
"SF-NN search is SF and SF is proven to scale better than Lc0"
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:55 am
Stockfish nnue has a secret weapon. The Kamehameha blast. Of course, he has to go to level 5 before he can use it. You don't just go Kamehameha blasting stuff willy-nilly.
At the very end it will be LCZero Vs Stockfish NNUE, but I predict a very close encounter of the 3rd kind, LCZero from Planet 1140b Vs StockFish NNUE from Planet Earth, Now I am more convinced than ever https://tcec-chess.com/live.html
I agree. I just played 200 games with Stockfish 12 Vs Lc0 26.2. Stockfish 12 won by only 24 Elo in 200 games at 3m+2s. And in testing. We can see how badly Stockfish NNUE has scaled in past testing. At longer time controls.
Both are the best chess engines, and the winner may only be decided by hardware and time controls.
The sprinter Stockfish 12 vs. the marathon runner Lc0. Who wins the race. May depend on the distance of the race!
Lc0 is clearly improving faster then Stockfish at this point in time. Even at 3m+2s time controls vs past matches at the same time controls.
Result:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
# name games wins draws losses score los% elo+/-
1. Stockfish 12 200 16 182 2 107.0 100.0 24.4
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 200 2 182 16 93.0 0.0 -24.4
Cross table:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
# name score games 1 2
1. Stockfish 12 107.0 200 x =====1==1===1====================1======1========11========================1==========================1============================================1====1===1=========1==0================1===1=1==0====
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 93.0 200 =====0==0===0====================0======0========00========================0==========================0============================================0====0===0=========0==1================0===0=0==1==== x
Tech:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tech (average nodes, depths, time/m per move, others per game), counted for computing moves only, ignored moves with zero nodes:
# name nodes/m NPS depth/m time/m moves time
1. Stockfish 12 125173K 26565996 42.5 4.7 54.1 255.1
2. Lc0 v0.26.2 101K 20342 10.0 4.9 54.1 267.2
all --- 61216K 12984844 26.3 4.8 54.1 261.2
For years ppl come up with the BS theory that A/B engines tuned in micro-bullet would be weak in LTC and for years they are so bluntly proven wrong. Impact of eval on horizon effects is minimal and it doesn't change whether you search to depth 20 or depth 100. SF-NN search is SF and SF is proven to scale better than Lc0 (and as a matter of fact any MCTS engine) in LTC. Ergo SF-NN scales better than Lc0 in LTC.
Your claims are simply BS reflecting your cluelessness in the matter. You effectively draw conclusions from STC (just because it's not micro-bullet but blitz instead) with a sample size that is a joke.
The result in the superfinal will be much worse sweep than last year. And then ppl like you would be astonished and would come up with all kind of ridiculous excuses to justify what is basically their cluelessness.
The only one that is clueless here is you. As I test at the longer time controls, as well as short time controls. Along with 1 core testing, and up to 32 threads.
And I am not talking about A/B engine only testing at micro-bullet. And I never have. I am talking about NNUE! And my sample size is huge. This is not my only test. I test non stop.
My conclusion is what the data is showing us, and if it changes all will see that also. I test openly, and to video.
"SF-NN search is SF and SF is proven to scale better than Lc0"
"The result in the superfinal will be much worse sweep than last year. And then ppl like you would be astonished and would come up with all kind of ridiculous excuses to justify what is basically their cluelessness"
For reference here are the results of last season's superfinal...
TCEC Season 184 May 2020 – Jul 2020 Stockfish 202006170741 LCZero v0.25.1-svjio-t60-3972-mlh + 23 = 61 - 16
Wins Losses Draws
23
16
61
Points Games
53.5
/
100
Winning percentage
53.5
Elo difference :
+24
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
Quick TCEC question as you guys would know:
Are all 8 remaining engines NN's with the exception of Komodo? Or is Komodo getting lapped by A/B engines as well?
Leo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:22 pm
In my own testing SF NNUE is doing great.
SF NNUE is the best program under most conditions. You are just not going to see crazy Elo performance with more threads, and/or a longer time control. Like you do when testing at bullet or fast blitz. On my system for example it crushes Lc0 under those conditions, and all other engines. But at longer time controls, it can perform under 20 Elo or lower at 15m+15s. For a huge drop in performance.
Some feel maybe this is due to reaching the end of gains for chess engine development. As the other best engines can reach this level with more time, and faster computers. Time will tell in short order.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
Dann Corbit wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:55 am
Stockfish nnue has a secret weapon. The Kamehameha blast. Of course, he has to go to level 5 before he can use it. You don't just go Kamehameha blasting stuff willy-nilly.
!