ShashChess

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

User avatar
pohl4711
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Full name: Stefan Pohl

Re: ShashChess

Post by pohl4711 »

Modern Times wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:12 am
The existing CCRL lists are a lost cause in my view and don't present meaningful information anymore. With different testers using different hardware, different GUIs, different GUI adjudication settings, different books, different tablebases, sometimes different hash sizes, and different opponent selection methodologies, there is a big error margin before the first game is even played. Add that to the statistical error margins and the high draw rate with stronger engines due to balanced books, and increasing core count and time control, and the lists end up being pretty meaningless and not worth the effort. Just my 2 cents worth. And on top of that, your choice of ratings tool and parameters will give you different answers as well.
I agree completely. But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already. And it is a huge round-robin, all openings repeated with reversed colors. So, here CCRL already does everything right, they are doing wrong in their other lists.
Nobody can stop the future!
Last edited by pohl4711 on Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 41990
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: ShashChess

Post by Graham Banks »

pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:18 amBut there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.
That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
User avatar
pohl4711
Posts: 2514
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Full name: Stefan Pohl

Re: ShashChess

Post by pohl4711 »

Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:20 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:18 amBut there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.
That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.
That would be very sad and real bad decision.
User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 41990
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: ShashChess

Post by Graham Banks »

pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:21 am
Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:20 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:18 amBut there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.
That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.
That would be very sad and real bad decision.
For you, yes.

Ray might of course maintain the list outside of CCRL.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Modern Times
Posts: 3574
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:02 pm

Re: ShashChess

Post by Modern Times »

pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:21 am
Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:20 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:18 amBut there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.
That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.
That would be very sad and real bad decision.
I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.
Modern Times
Posts: 3574
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:02 pm

Re: ShashChess

Post by Modern Times »

Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:22 am Ray might of course maintain the list outside of CCRL.
With no Torch, Ethereal and Dragon that were supplied to CCRL testers for use only in CCRL testing, not possible in its current format. It would be free engines only, no private or commercial.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10424
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: ShashChess

Post by Uri Blass »

Modern Times wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:28 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:21 am
Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:20 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:18 amBut there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.
That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.
That would be very sad and real bad decision.
I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.

If people do not want to start from scratch they can add engines to my fixed node rating list when results are not dependent on hardware.
User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 41990
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: ShashChess

Post by Graham Banks »

Uri Blass wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:51 pm
Modern Times wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:28 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:21 am
Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:20 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:18 amBut there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.
That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.
That would be very sad and real bad decision.
I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.

If people do not want to start from scratch they can add engines to my fixed node rating list when results are not dependent on hardware.
I think that you may have misunderstood?
Ray is leaving CCRL, but CCRL continues.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Pali
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:23 pm
Full name: Doruk Sekercioglu

Re: ShashChess

Post by Pali »

amchess wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:16 am Statistically, it does change, as at 1m+1s much more pruning is done.
In addition, ShashChess dynamically evaluates position quality to direct the search: it should be obvious that it needs more time...
The 200 matches in our match are all from unbalanced positions, not dead draws.
Indeed, your result shows that, to try to beat ShashChess, you have to use Stockfish at its peak performance (bullet monster) and ShashChess at its minimum, but not even that!
In fact, if you try to run the same test between Stockfish and itself you will see obvious randomness in the final result.
In fact, the original search algorithm of Stockfish (and of any decent modern chess engine) inherently has its own randomness.
It is scary how much you actually know about proper testing despite refusing to do it yourself. Run a 50k game test against Stockfish at your time control of choice and share the PGNs. The claim that "It should be obvious that it needs more time..." is speculation that needs to be backed up by evidence and the burden of proof is on you.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10424
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: ShashChess

Post by Uri Blass »

Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:07 pm
Uri Blass wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:51 pm
Modern Times wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:28 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:21 am
Graham Banks wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:20 am
pohl4711 wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2024 10:18 amBut there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.
That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.
That would be very sad and real bad decision.
I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.

If people do not want to start from scratch they can add engines to my fixed node rating list when results are not dependent on hardware.
I think that you may have misunderstood?
Ray is leaving CCRL, but CCRL continues.
I understood it.
I meant that people who want to add games to a list with different hardware without destroying the purity of the list can do it for my fixed node rating list(of course nobody has to do it and today I am the only person who give computer time for it).