Hans Niemann

[chrisw]

FIDE seems to be behaving itself okay. It’s not putting out threatening and hysterical press releases as it goes along. It’s not run by a psychopath. It’s not seeking to publicly personal assassinate any of the parties either as it goes along or in preparation. I think we can assume a generally fair process, and fair processes, of necessity, take time. Come back in one year?

Is the Nieman lawsuit still active? If so, the activities and evidence of the FIDE investigation would be discoverable. One of those reasons why organizations often don’t initiate investigations while litigation is pending.

Discovery is between the parties in a case. FIDE is not a party to the case. It's also based in Switzerland. The case is in the US. It's a civil case. We know the US has a penchant for imagining its law applies to anybody anywhere (eg the Julian Assange case where an Australian journalist who has never set foot in the US and who published material outside of the US that the US doesn't like can supposedly be hauled into US jurisdiction and US law applied), but I doubt US civil law on document acquisition can pull paperwork out of unconnected organisations not in the jurisdiction and not parties. Imagine for a moment the civil case was in Russia and FIDE was based in the US. Do you imagine Russian courts could get "discovery" out of US-FIDE for onwards transmission to Russia? Not a chance.

[Robert Flesher]

Imho, caught a cheater, always a cheater! Hang him out to dry!

No second chances for a 19 year old?

I know what your saying Ed and perhaps my statement was more harsh than was needed. However, If the evidence that was reported is correct, there can be no doubt he has won many cash prized tournaments by cheating. Not only when he was 19. As a chess player who fought tooth and nail for every rating point I have, I have no pity or remorse for those who cheat.

Your previous post sounds a lot like Wild West film, for example in Hang 'EM high with Clint Eastwood. Codex: For sure, hang him up, if he really did it, we'll find out later. Ok, that sounds much milder now.

But once a cheat, always a cheat is also a very radical and hardly tenable view, IMHO
.

Agreed! That was why I posted the reply. Although, I still stand firm on the cheating issue. It is a cancer that is destroying human interaction within this incredible game. IMHO

[syzygy]

Is the Nieman lawsuit still active?

Looks like it:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/65 ... v-carlsen/

Apparently Niemann filed an amended complaint in January (maybe this is known and it is just me who missed it):
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 75.0_1.pdf

It still has the silly and childish hyperbole, e.g. "Niemann's victory effectively dashed Carlsen's ambition to beat 2900".

[CornfedForever]

Agreed! That was why I posted the reply. Although, I still stand firm on the cheating issue. It is a cancer that is destroying human interaction within this incredible game. IMHO

It is hatred and intolerance which is 'destroying human interaction'...just look at peoples comments.

[chrisw]

Is the Nieman lawsuit still active?

Looks like it:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/65 ... v-carlsen/

Apparently Niemann filed an amended complaint in January (maybe this is known and it is just me who missed it):
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 75.0_1.pdf

It still has the silly and childish hyperbole, e.g. "Niemann's victory effectively dashed Carlsen's ambition to beat 2900".

Is this any better? ChatGPT asked to rewrite it in a more formal legal style. Not sure about the accuracy though ....

Niemann, a 19-year-old self-taught chess prodigy, has filed a legal action to recover damages that the Defendants have caused to his reputation, career, and life. Niemann claims that the Defendants defamed him and unlawfully blacklisted him from the profession he has dedicated his life to. Niemann is the youngest-ever winner of the Tuesday Night Marathon at the Mechanics’ Institute Chess Club, which is the oldest chess club in the US. He earned the title of U.S. Chess Federation Master in 2014, and FIDE, the international governing body of professional chess, awarded him the highest honor by naming him a chess Grandmaster in December 2020. By October 2022, FIDE ranked Niemann as the 40th best chess player in the world, tied for the fourth-youngest player in the top-50. Niemann states that chess is his life, and he has earned a scholarship to attend the prestigious Columbia Grammar & Preparatory School in New York City based on his gift for playing chess. He makes a living by teaching chess and participating in chess tournaments.

Defendant Sven Magnus Øen Carlsen is a 31-year-old chess player from Norway, who is the five-time reigning World Chess Champion and the highest-ranked chess player in history. Carlsen has created an online chess company, Play Magnus Group, and has used his success in chess to build a global brand. Prior to the acts giving rise to this Complaint, Play Magnus touted Niemann as one of its brand ambassadors. Play Magnus has grown into one of the two largest online chess companies in the world, second only to Chess.com, LLC. In August 2022, Chess.com agreed to acquire Play Magnus for nearly $83 million, and the two companies are now merging to monopolize the competitive chess market. Carlsen has significant influence over the format of prominent chess tournaments and who gets invited to compete in them, given his stature as the self-described “King of Chess.”

On September 4, 2022, Niemann defeated Carlsen at the Sinquefield Cup chess tournament in St. Louis, Missouri, and this was not the first time that Niemann had beaten Carlsen at chess. Niemann’s victory effectively prevented Carlsen from achieving his remaining statistical ambitions, namely, achieving a 2900 FIDE performance rating for the first time in history and breaking his own world-record unbeaten streak in FIDE-sanctioned events. Niemann playfully taunted Carlsen during his post-match interview, which enraged Carlsen. He accused Niemann of cheating during their in-person game without any evidence and demanded that the organizers of the Sinquefield Cup disqualify Niemann from the tournament. When tournament officials refused to comply with Carlsen’s demand, Carlsen boycotted the remainder of the Sinquefield Cup in protest, which is an unprecedented act for a top chess professional, let alone the reigning World Champion. Carlsen then confirmed his defamatory accusations against Niemann with a provocative post on Twitter, which had the intended effect of disseminating Carlsen’s false accusations that Niemann had cheated against him across the globe.

Days later, Carlsen was scheduled to play Niemann again in the Julius Baer Generation Cup. Rather than seek to redeem himself from his unexpected loss to Niemann, Carlsen forfeited the game after making one move and then issued a press release repeating his false accusations that Niemann had cheated against him at the Sinquefield Cup.

[j.t.]

statistical ambitions

lol

[chrisw]

statistical ambitions

lol

I didn’t write it of course, but it’s actually a perfectly fine descriptor for wanting to break the 2900 barrier, no?

[towforce]

If the evidence is not strong enough to either convict Niemann or to exonerate him, then we're all going to be waiting on tenterhooks for a document from FIDE containing 30 or so pages of waffle.

Regarding the notion, "Once a criminal, always a criminal": there's a very large number of counter examples (criminals who later became law abiding citizens), so the basic notion is wrong. For people who disapprove of Niemann, the better option might be the "crime so terrible it can never be forgiven" notion.

[syzygy]

Is the Nieman lawsuit still active?

Looks like it:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/65 ... v-carlsen/

Apparently Niemann filed an amended complaint in January (maybe this is known and it is just me who missed it):
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap ... 75.0_1.pdf

It still has the silly and childish hyperbole, e.g. "Niemann's victory effectively dashed Carlsen's ambition to beat 2900".

Is this any better? ChatGPT asked to rewrite it in a more formal legal style. Not sure about the accuracy though ....

Not bad at all.

Lawyers soon won't be needed anymore for straightforward cases.

[syzygy]

Regarding the notion, "Once a criminal, always a criminal": there's a very large number of counter examples (criminals who later became law abiding citizens), so the basic notion is wrong. For people who disapprove of Niemann, the better option might be the "crime so terrible it can never be forgiven" notion.

I think the people who prefer never to see Niemann play chess again are not so much concerned with punishing him but with ensuring that there is no (or less) cheating in future games. If someone has been untrustworthy once, how can we trust him in the future?

But it seems unlikely that Niemann will be "convicted" by FIDE and even if he is, he will not be banned for life.

I wonder if FIDE will consider that cheating in chess outside FIDE events can in principle be a breach of the FIDE ethical rules.