Aggression Test

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

Werewolf
Posts: 1796
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm

Re: Aggression Test

Post by Werewolf »

Whiskers wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:43 pm When Patricia 2.0 releases (should be within a week or two) it should be the most aggressive engine ever, however it's much weaker than the other engines listed here (at only 3000-3200 depending on how many search patches I can get to work without the aggression level tanking).
Patricia was my grandmother's name, so I'm struggling to take this seriously as she was barely over 5 feet tall and rarely ill-tempered, let alone aggressive.

But seriously, what about it makes it so aggressive? Do say when it's released.
chesskobra
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:30 am
Full name: Chesskobra

Re: Aggression Test

Post by chesskobra »

What is aggressive chess? Counting sacrifices is just one metric, somewhat meaningless in my opinion. Here is some data on sacrifices and exchange sacrifices that I extracted from the 40H database of Norman Pollock. (Disclaimer: The data may not be perfect, and the methods could be improved. For example, there may be a small fraction of games in which a player shown in the table may be at the receiving end of a sacrifice, while I have done only 'grep' for their name in a databases of games with sacrifices or exchange sacrifices. Also, I just started experimenting with the filters provided by pgn-extract and some of the filters written by Stefan Pohl. So the numbers could be plus/minus some delta.) You may get some surprises.

Number of sacrifices/100 games (in decreasing order)

Topalov (6.44), Polgar, J. (6.06), Stein (5.22), Shirov (5.12), Caruana (5.11), Tal (5.03), Kasparov (4.77), Carlsen (4.69), Anand (4.66), Aronian (4.50), Petrosian (4.29), Karpov (4.21), Nakamura (3.77), Korchnoi (3.71), Ding (3.55), Spassky (3.36), Fischer (3.14).

Number of exchange sacrifices/100 games (in decreasing order)

Shirov (2.08), Polgar, J. (2.05), Topalov (2.02), Petrosian (1.84), Anand (1.70), Stein (1.60), Tal (1.59), Caruana (1.52), Nakamura (1.51), Ding (1.47), Kasparov (1.36), Fischer (1.31), Karpov (1.24), Aronian (1.18), Spassky (1.16), Korchnoi (1.07), Carlsen (0.97).

It is nice to see one list ending with Fischer and the other ending with Carlsen.

Caruana ahead of Tal, Kasparov, Anand in the first list. Tal and Kasparov somewhat lower in both lists. On the other hand, Topalov, Polgar, Shirov seem to confirm the image.
User avatar
pohl4711
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Full name: Stefan Pohl
Contact:

Re: Aggression Test

Post by pohl4711 »

Werewolf wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:24 pm
So just so I'm clear here, out of all the engines you've tested, Velvet 4.1.0 is the most aggressive of them all?
Hard to say. Velvet 4.1.0, Komodo 14.1 aggressive, Revenge 1.0, Pedone 3.0 (not 3.1!) are all playing very aggressive. From these engines, Revenge 1.0 is clearly the strongest. Velvet 4.1.0, Komodo 14.1 aggressive, Pedone 3.0 (not 3.1!) are on the same Elo-level, but clearly weaker than Revenge 1.0.
If you look at high numbers of sacrifices, Uralochka 3.37c and Arasan 23.2 are interesting, too...
Dont forget about Stockfish... Stockfish 16.1 is playing aggressive...
Werewolf
Posts: 1796
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm

Re: Aggression Test

Post by Werewolf »

chesskobra wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:45 am What is aggressive chess? Counting sacrifices is just one metric, somewhat meaningless in my opinion.
Yes I agree. This may be the reason, perhaps, I'm getting very different results to Mr. Pohl.

I'm defining it as a propensity to attack the enemy king.
User avatar
pohl4711
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Full name: Stefan Pohl
Contact:

Re: Aggression Test

Post by pohl4711 »

Werewolf wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm
chesskobra wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:45 am What is aggressive chess? Counting sacrifices is just one metric, somewhat meaningless in my opinion.
Yes I agree. This may be the reason, perhaps, I'm getting very different results to Mr. Pohl.

I'm defining it as a propensity to attack the enemy king.
Where are these different results? What was measured? And how?

(And by the way: My EAS-Tool does much, much more, than just counting sacs...)
User avatar
Rebel
Posts: 6992
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:04 pm

Re: Aggression Test

Post by Rebel »

[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2024.04.02"]
[Round "105"]
[White "Rebel-xyz"]
[Black "Clover-5.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D31"]
[Opening "QGD"]
[Variation "3.Nc3"]
[TimeControl "40/10"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "204"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 Nf6 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 c5 7. dxc5 h6
8. Bh4 Nc6 9. e3 Be6 10. Bb5 O-O 11. Ne2 Bxc5 12. O-O Bd6 13. h3 Qe7 14.
Rad1 Rfd8 15. f4 Bc5 16. Rf3 a6 17. Bxc6 bxc6 18. Ng3 Bd7 19. Nh5 Bxe3+ 20.
Kh1 Ba7 21. Nxf6+ gxf6 22. Rg3+ Kh8 23. Qe2 Bc5 24. Re1 Qxe2 25. Bxf6+ Kh7
26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. Rxf7+ Kg8 28. Rg7+ Kf8 29. Nxe2 Ra7 30. Rh7 Re8 31. Be5
Rb7 32. Rxh6 Be3 33. Rf6+ Kg8 34. Nc1 d4 35. Nd3 Rb5 36. Rg6+ Kf8 37. a4
Rd5 38. g4 Kf7 39. Rf6+ Kg8 40. Kh2 a5 41. b3 c5 42. Kg3 Re6 43. h4 Rxf6
44. Bxf6 Bc8 45. Be7 Rd7 46. Bxc5 Rc7 47. Rd1 Bb7 48. b4 axb4 49. Bxb4 Rc2
50. f5 Kf7 51. g5 Rg2+ 52. Kh3 Bxg5 53. Ne1 Rg1 54. hxg5 Rxg5 55. Rc1 Bd5
56. Rc7+ Kg8 57. f6 Rf5 58. Rg7+ Kh8 59. Rd7 Be6 60. Rd8+ Kh7 61. Kg3 Rxf6
62. a5 Ba2 63. Nf3 Kg6 64. Nxd4 Bc4 65. Rc8 Bd5 66. Rc5 Bh1 67. Rb5 Be4 68.
Re5 Bh1 69. Re1 Bd5 70. Kg4 Bb7 71. Re8 Bd5 72. Rd8 Bc4 73. Rc8 Bd3 74. Rc3
Ba6 75. Kg3 Bb7 76. Rc1 Ba8 77. Rc7 Bh1 78. Rd7 Ba8 79. Bd2 Be4 80. Re7 Ba8
81. Bf4 Bd5 82. Re5 Bh1 83. Rb5 Kf7 84. Rh5 Ba8 85. Rc5 Rg6+ 86. Kf2 Ke7
87. Rc7+ Kd8 88. Ke3 Bg2 89. Be5 Bd5 90. Rc5 Bb7 91. Kf4 Ba6 92. Ke4 Bc8
93. Rb5 Ba6 94. Rb8+ Kd7 95. Kd5 Rh6 96. Rg8 Rh7 97. Rg6 Bd3 98. Rb6 Ke8
99. Rb8+ Kd7 100. Nb3 Ke7 101. Nc5 Kf7 102. Nxd3 Kg6 1-0
[/pgn]

@Stefan, I came across this game labelled as queen sacrifice, 24.Re1 Qxe2 25.Bxf6 but it really isn't, see 29.Nxe2
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.
Werewolf
Posts: 1796
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 pm

Re: Aggression Test

Post by Werewolf »

pohl4711 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:20 am
Werewolf wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm
chesskobra wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:45 am What is aggressive chess? Counting sacrifices is just one metric, somewhat meaningless in my opinion.
Yes I agree. This may be the reason, perhaps, I'm getting very different results to Mr. Pohl.

I'm defining it as a propensity to attack the enemy king.
Where are these different results? What was measured? And how?

(And by the way: My EAS-Tool does much, much more, than just counting sacs...)
OK noted about your EAS tool. I'm not criticising it, but I do get different results.

It'll take me another month to build up the data but I'm testing engines with around 1000 Elo difference in strength, where resignation is not allowed, based on this logic:

1) Where massive Elo difference exists the stronger side can usually exert its will without much resistance
2) Checkmate terminates a game immediately
3) Therefore, an engine with a tendency to attack the enemy king by flinging pieces at it will likely have shorter games on average than a grinder.
User avatar
pohl4711
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Full name: Stefan Pohl
Contact:

Re: Aggression Test

Post by pohl4711 »

Rebel wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:41 am [pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2024.04.02"]
[Round "105"]
[White "Rebel-xyz"]
[Black "Clover-5.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D31"]
[Opening "QGD"]
[Variation "3.Nc3"]
[TimeControl "40/10"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "204"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 Nf6 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 c5 7. dxc5 h6
8. Bh4 Nc6 9. e3 Be6 10. Bb5 O-O 11. Ne2 Bxc5 12. O-O Bd6 13. h3 Qe7 14.
Rad1 Rfd8 15. f4 Bc5 16. Rf3 a6 17. Bxc6 bxc6 18. Ng3 Bd7 19. Nh5 Bxe3+ 20.
Kh1 Ba7 21. Nxf6+ gxf6 22. Rg3+ Kh8 23. Qe2 Bc5 24. Re1 Qxe2 25. Bxf6+ Kh7
26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. Rxf7+ Kg8 28. Rg7+ Kf8 29. Nxe2 Ra7 30. Rh7 Re8 31. Be5
Rb7 32. Rxh6 Be3 33. Rf6+ Kg8 34. Nc1 d4 35. Nd3 Rb5 36. Rg6+ Kf8 37. a4
Rd5 38. g4 Kf7 39. Rf6+ Kg8 40. Kh2 a5 41. b3 c5 42. Kg3 Re6 43. h4 Rxf6
44. Bxf6 Bc8 45. Be7 Rd7 46. Bxc5 Rc7 47. Rd1 Bb7 48. b4 axb4 49. Bxb4 Rc2
50. f5 Kf7 51. g5 Rg2+ 52. Kh3 Bxg5 53. Ne1 Rg1 54. hxg5 Rxg5 55. Rc1 Bd5
56. Rc7+ Kg8 57. f6 Rf5 58. Rg7+ Kh8 59. Rd7 Be6 60. Rd8+ Kh7 61. Kg3 Rxf6
62. a5 Ba2 63. Nf3 Kg6 64. Nxd4 Bc4 65. Rc8 Bd5 66. Rc5 Bh1 67. Rb5 Be4 68.
Re5 Bh1 69. Re1 Bd5 70. Kg4 Bb7 71. Re8 Bd5 72. Rd8 Bc4 73. Rc8 Bd3 74. Rc3
Ba6 75. Kg3 Bb7 76. Rc1 Ba8 77. Rc7 Bh1 78. Rd7 Ba8 79. Bd2 Be4 80. Re7 Ba8
81. Bf4 Bd5 82. Re5 Bh1 83. Rb5 Kf7 84. Rh5 Ba8 85. Rc5 Rg6+ 86. Kf2 Ke7
87. Rc7+ Kd8 88. Ke3 Bg2 89. Be5 Bd5 90. Rc5 Bb7 91. Kf4 Ba6 92. Ke4 Bc8
93. Rb5 Ba6 94. Rb8+ Kd7 95. Kd5 Rh6 96. Rg8 Rh7 97. Rg6 Bd3 98. Rb6 Ke8
99. Rb8+ Kd7 100. Nb3 Ke7 101. Nc5 Kf7 102. Nxd3 Kg6 1-0
[/pgn]

@Stefan, I came across this game labelled as queen sacrifice, 24.Re1 Qxe2 25.Bxf6 but it really isn't, see 29.Nxe2
The reason is, the EAS Tool looks for less material, a missing queen, but later the win for this color. But the 2 conditions (less material, a missing queen) must be true for 8 plies in a row. In this rare case here, the queen is recaptured after 9 plies...
In most cases, the 8-ply interval works fine. If I would increase it to 10 or 12, a lot of sacs would be missed by the EAS Tool.
So 8 plies work best, but there is no perfect world... If you parse games only by their moves with pgn-extract, without any evaluation by an engine (that makes the EAS Tool so brutally fast), there can be mismatches finding sacs. I am not able to avoid this completely, sorry.
User avatar
pohl4711
Posts: 2436
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:25 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
Full name: Stefan Pohl
Contact:

Re: Aggression Test

Post by pohl4711 »

Werewolf wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:44 am
pohl4711 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:20 am
Werewolf wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm
chesskobra wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:45 am What is aggressive chess? Counting sacrifices is just one metric, somewhat meaningless in my opinion.
Yes I agree. This may be the reason, perhaps, I'm getting very different results to Mr. Pohl.

I'm defining it as a propensity to attack the enemy king.
Where are these different results? What was measured? And how?

(And by the way: My EAS-Tool does much, much more, than just counting sacs...)
OK noted about your EAS tool. I'm not criticising it, but I do get different results.

It'll take me another month to build up the data but I'm testing engines with around 1000 Elo difference in strength, where resignation is not allowed, based on this logic:

1) Where massive Elo difference exists the stronger side can usually exert its will without much resistance
2) Checkmate terminates a game immediately
3) Therefore, an engine with a tendency to attack the enemy king by flinging pieces at it will likely have shorter games on average than a grinder.
The EAS Tool measures short wins and the overall length of all won games of an engine, too.
https://www.sp-cc.de/files/eas_scoring_explanation.txt
User avatar
Rebel
Posts: 6992
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:04 pm

Re: Aggression Test

Post by Rebel »

pohl4711 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:55 am
Rebel wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:41 am [pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2024.04.02"]
[Round "105"]
[White "Rebel-xyz"]
[Black "Clover-5.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D31"]
[Opening "QGD"]
[Variation "3.Nc3"]
[TimeControl "40/10"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "204"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 Nf6 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 c5 7. dxc5 h6
8. Bh4 Nc6 9. e3 Be6 10. Bb5 O-O 11. Ne2 Bxc5 12. O-O Bd6 13. h3 Qe7 14.
Rad1 Rfd8 15. f4 Bc5 16. Rf3 a6 17. Bxc6 bxc6 18. Ng3 Bd7 19. Nh5 Bxe3+ 20.
Kh1 Ba7 21. Nxf6+ gxf6 22. Rg3+ Kh8 23. Qe2 Bc5 24. Re1 Qxe2 25. Bxf6+ Kh7
26. Rg7+ Kh8 27. Rxf7+ Kg8 28. Rg7+ Kf8 29. Nxe2 Ra7 30. Rh7 Re8 31. Be5
Rb7 32. Rxh6 Be3 33. Rf6+ Kg8 34. Nc1 d4 35. Nd3 Rb5 36. Rg6+ Kf8 37. a4
Rd5 38. g4 Kf7 39. Rf6+ Kg8 40. Kh2 a5 41. b3 c5 42. Kg3 Re6 43. h4 Rxf6
44. Bxf6 Bc8 45. Be7 Rd7 46. Bxc5 Rc7 47. Rd1 Bb7 48. b4 axb4 49. Bxb4 Rc2
50. f5 Kf7 51. g5 Rg2+ 52. Kh3 Bxg5 53. Ne1 Rg1 54. hxg5 Rxg5 55. Rc1 Bd5
56. Rc7+ Kg8 57. f6 Rf5 58. Rg7+ Kh8 59. Rd7 Be6 60. Rd8+ Kh7 61. Kg3 Rxf6
62. a5 Ba2 63. Nf3 Kg6 64. Nxd4 Bc4 65. Rc8 Bd5 66. Rc5 Bh1 67. Rb5 Be4 68.
Re5 Bh1 69. Re1 Bd5 70. Kg4 Bb7 71. Re8 Bd5 72. Rd8 Bc4 73. Rc8 Bd3 74. Rc3
Ba6 75. Kg3 Bb7 76. Rc1 Ba8 77. Rc7 Bh1 78. Rd7 Ba8 79. Bd2 Be4 80. Re7 Ba8
81. Bf4 Bd5 82. Re5 Bh1 83. Rb5 Kf7 84. Rh5 Ba8 85. Rc5 Rg6+ 86. Kf2 Ke7
87. Rc7+ Kd8 88. Ke3 Bg2 89. Be5 Bd5 90. Rc5 Bb7 91. Kf4 Ba6 92. Ke4 Bc8
93. Rb5 Ba6 94. Rb8+ Kd7 95. Kd5 Rh6 96. Rg8 Rh7 97. Rg6 Bd3 98. Rb6 Ke8
99. Rb8+ Kd7 100. Nb3 Ke7 101. Nc5 Kf7 102. Nxd3 Kg6 1-0
[/pgn]

@Stefan, I came across this game labelled as queen sacrifice, 24.Re1 Qxe2 25.Bxf6 but it really isn't, see 29.Nxe2
The reason is, the EAS Tool looks for less material, a missing queen, but later the win for this color. But the 2 conditions (less material, a missing queen) must be true for 8 plies in a row. In this rare case here, the queen is recaptured after 9 plies...
In most cases, the 8-ply interval works fine. If I would increase it to 10 or 12, a lot of sacs would be missed by the EAS Tool.
So 8 plies work best, but there is no perfect world... If you parse games only by their moves with pgn-extract, without any evaluation by an engine (that makes the EAS Tool so brutally fast), there can be mismatches finding sacs. I am not able to avoid this completely, sorry.
Yep.

If have to see the perfection definition is a sac, anyone?
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.
Post Reply