No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

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Graham Banks
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by Graham Banks »

Graham Banks wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 4:17 am
Viz wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 4:13 am Yeah, I'm unkind towards person who first stole leela work, then stole stockfish work, and then proceeded to fraudulently market it with bullshit claims of incredible innovations only that kind of genius is capable of - while needing help of multiple people for weeks to be able to set up training and even to compile an engine. And as I said, did it not only once, but twice.
And yes, I'm pretty upset that somehow and someway talkchess has some decent opinion about this type of people because 20 years ago they wrote some articles and whatever.
I think he's done more than just write articles.
Some might argue that he has contributed more towards computer chess than you have.
I would like to add that I respect and appreciate all that Viz and the Stockfish team do. We are extremely fortunate that the strongest chess engine is free for us to use.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
AndrewGrant
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by AndrewGrant »

Graham Banks wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 4:42 am What I'm about to post is already well-known and has been posted elsewhere:

The only mistake, which I (Albert) will gladly take ownership over, was to bundle the NN and the binary into a single executable. It was a genuinely innocent mistake, but one that led to all the subsequent problems.
Its extremely taxing to talk to people like Graham and Dann, because they don't actually seem to read what is written to them in response.

- Albert Silver deceived/lied to TCEC about the origins of DeusX to get "his" engine into TCEC. It was a low-effort Leela clone.
- Albert Silver "produced" Fat Fritz II, which blatantly violated Stockfish's GPL in many ways, as acknowledged by ChessBase in their settlement with the Stockfish team. When called out on this, they continued to violate the license, by misunderstanding their obligations regarding the NN.
- ChessBase sold Houdini for many years, long after it was known that Robert Houdart had been in violation of the Stockfish license for years, as was revealed when the source code for Houdini was hacked and released to a small group of people, wherein Noobpwnftw ultimately published the code in public.
Friendly reminder that stealing is a crime, is wrong, and makes you a thief.
"Those who can't do, clone instead" - Eduard ( A real life friend, not this forum's Eduard )
Viz
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by Viz »

Yeah, did this fly over the radar?
Viz wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 3:33 am Just because someone contributed in some way to something at some point of his life doesn't mean he can't be a fraudster.
Remember guy called Lance Armstrong? He contributed a lot to popularising his sport and making money for cancer charity, yet he is definitely a fraudster.
Same goes for people like albert silver
Doesn't matter what you think of his contributions from early 2000. He is a factual fraudster, proven in court.
Calling him a scammer and a fraud is not an offence. It's just stating a fact.
Even better example would be houdart. His engine at some point was the best in the world? Yes, indeed. Is he a fraud? Yes, indeed. Did he contribute a lot? Yes, indeed. Does this make him not a fraud? No, indeed.
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Graham Banks
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by Graham Banks »

Here is a copy of the final agreement reached as result of the court case that the Stockfish developers took against Chessbase:

This document contains the text of the settlement between Tord Romstad & Stéphane Nicolet and
ChessBase GmbH. It contains the original and binding German version (see below), and an English
translation.
Settlement
Decision
Pursuant to Section 278 (6) of the Code of Civil Procedure, it is hereby found that the following settlement
has been reached between the parties:
The parties are involved in the litigation before the District Court Munich I, Case No. 42 0 9765/21, in which
the plaintiffs have applied for a court prohibition of the further distribution of the Stockfish software - in
particular also as part of the defendant's products, including Fat Fritz 2 and Houdini. The parties agree that
the license obligations of the GNU General Public License, Version 3, (hereinafter "GPL-3.0") for the
products Fat Fritz 2 and Houdini 6 have not been complied with. In the future, Defendant wishes to structure
the distribution of its products to ensure compliance with the GPL-3.0 license terms and to adequately inform
the public about the use of the Stockfish software in Defendant's products. Against this background and in
order to settle the dispute amicably, the parties agree as follows:
1.
The defendant undertakes to refrain from distributing and/or making publicly available the Stockfish
software for a period of one year after the conclusion of this settlement, whether alone or as part of a
product with additional software. This applies to all program versions of Stockfish in modified or unmodified
form, as far as the plaintiffs are entitled to this software. An exception to the aforementioned cease and
desist obligation applies to the offer of the Defendant or its distribution partners to re-download already
purchased products of the Defendant with a customer account, provided that the download offer is made in
compliance with the license obligations of GPL-3.0 and the general conditions described under section 8
below are complied with.
2.
The plaintiffs grant the Defendant a license to their rights to the Stockfish software under the conditions of
the GPL-3.0 for the time after the expiry of the prohibition regulated in clause 1 and already with the
conclusion of this settlement for the uses permitted in accordance with clause 1. The granting of the license
is subject to the condition that the defendant does not violate the prohibition in section 1.
3.
The Defendant undertakes to refrain from distributing the Stockfish software or making it publicly
available after the expiry of the prohibition provided for in section 1, whether alone or as part of a product
with further software, without fully complying with the license conditions of the GPL-3.0. This applies to all
program versions of Stockfish licensed under the GPL-3.0 in modified or unmodified form, as far as the
plaintiffs are entitled to the software.
4.
The Defendant undertakes to pay an appropriate contractual penalty to the Free Software Foundation
Europe e.V. for each culpable breach of the cease-and-desist obligations governed by sections 1 and 3 that
corresponds to the Plaintiffs' allegation in the underlying legal dispute (distribution or making available to the
public without attaching the license text and/or making available the complete corresponding source code),
the amount of which shall be determined by the Plaintiffs at their reasonable discretion, but which, in the
event of a dispute, may be reviewed by the competent district court with regard to its appropriateness. The
parties agree that it does not constitute a culpable breach on the part of the Defendant if distribution
partners were to distribute or make publicly available the Stockfish software within the scope of products of
the defendant contrary to the instruction/release of the Defendant.
5.
The Defendant undertakes, for the purpose of informing the public, to place a clearly visible notice on all of
its websites relating to Fat Fritz 2 and/or Houdini 6, which are listed in Annex 1, within four weeks of the
conclusion of this Settlement, containing the following text: "ChessBase's rights of use to the Stockfish
software are subject to the license terms of the GPL-3.0. ChessBase has reached an agreement with the
Stockfish team to no longer distribute the product for a period ending on [date of the conclusion of the
Settlement + 1 year]." For foreign language websites, this text must be placed in the appropriate language.
The notice must be posted on the web pages in Attachment 1 for at least one year after this Settlement is
entered into, and as long as they are made publicly available.
6.
The plaintiffs and the Defendant each intend to publish a coordinated press release on the
amicable settlement of the dispute within four weeks of the conclusion of this settlement.
7.
Within eight weeks after the conclusion of this Settlement, Defendant shall, in order to improve compliance
with license terms on Free and Open Source Software (FOSS), internally introduce the role of a "Free
Software Compliance Officer" and list under the domain [foss.chessbase.com] the products that contain the
software Stockfish under the GPL-3.0 or other FOSS. If the respective licenses require the provision of the
source code, the Defendant will enable a download of the source code by anyone from there.
8.
To the extent that Defendant resumes distribution with products containing the Stockfish Software
under the GPL-3.0 after the end of the year for which the prohibition applies as governed by
Section 1, Defendant shall comply with the following framework in accordance with Section 7 of
the GPL-3.0:
a)
Advertisements for products using the Stockfish software shall appropriately refer to the use of
Stockfish and comparisons of playing strength with Stockfish or other chess engines shall be truthful
and provable (e.g. by reference to appropriate current rankings) and shall refer to current versions.
b)
Neural Networks offered by Defendant for use with Stockfish that are included in the compilation or
dynamically loaded at runtime to initialize the data structures and logic of the Software must be subject
to GPL-3.0 or a compatible license.
c)
Insofar as the Defendant wishes to distribute the Stockfish software or make it publicly available, it may have
its compliance with the license terms of the GPL-3.0 certified in advance by the Software Freedom
Conservancy at its own expense. Plaintiffs will accept such certified software as being in license compliance
with GPL-3.0.
9.
With this settlement, all claims of the plaintiffs against the defendant, irrespective of their legal
basis, due to the facts in dispute are settled and resolved.
10.
The costs of the proceedings are set off against each other.
Attachment 1
Web pages:
https://de.chessbase.com/post/neu-houdini-6
https://en.chessbase.com/post/neu-houdini-6
https://de.chessbase.com/post/zehn-jahre-houdini
https://en.chessbase.com/post/10-years-houdini
https://es.chessbase.com/post/decimo-an ... ni-ajedrez
https://en.chessbase.com/post/tcec-supe ... -vs-komodo
https://de.chessbase.com/post/tcec-supe ... ini-komodo
https://de.chessbase.com/post/tcec-stoc ... uperfinale
https://de.chessbase.com/post/tcec-11-s ... uperfinale
https://de.chessbase.com/post/houdini-g ... uperfinale
https://de.chessbase.com/post/20-halbzu ... nen-jahren
https://en.chessbase.com/post/tcec-supe ... -vs-komodo
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz ... oth-worlds
https://en.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz ... w-number-1
https://de.chessbase.com/post/fat-fritz ... e-nummer-1
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/fat_fritz_2 (alternatively: delete website)
https://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/fat_fritz_2 (alternatively: delete website)
Youtube:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Graham Banks
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by Graham Banks »

Viz wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 6:02 am Yeah, did this fly over the radar?
Viz wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 3:33 am Just because someone contributed in some way to something at some point of his life doesn't mean he can't be a fraudster.
Remember guy called Lance Armstrong? He contributed a lot to popularising his sport and making money for cancer charity, yet he is definitely a fraudster.
Same goes for people like albert silver
Doesn't matter what you think of his contributions from early 2000. He is a factual fraudster, proven in court.
Calling him a scammer and a fraud is not an offence. It's just stating a fact.
Even better example would be houdart. His engine at some point was the best in the world? Yes, indeed. Is he a fraud? Yes, indeed. Did he contribute a lot? Yes, indeed. Does this make him not a fraud? No, indeed.
I read what you posted regarding Lance Armstrong, although taking illegal substances in order to win races and gain big money, is a whole different kettle of fish.

The court case never mentioned Albert in its findings, which is why I think it is poor form for yourself and Andrew to infer that he is a thief and a convicted fraudster.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Graham Banks
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by Graham Banks »

Just got banned from the OpenBench discord channel because of my stance here. Oh well.
No hard feelings, Andrew.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
AndrewGrant
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Full name: Andrew Grant

Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by AndrewGrant »

Graham Banks wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:27 am Just got banned from the OpenBench discord channel because of my stance here. Oh well.
No hard feelings, Andrew.
No hard feelings. Thank you for all you do for such a large portion of the community.
Friendly reminder that stealing is a crime, is wrong, and makes you a thief.
"Those who can't do, clone instead" - Eduard ( A real life friend, not this forum's Eduard )
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Graham Banks
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by Graham Banks »

AndrewGrant wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:42 am
Graham Banks wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:27 am Just got banned from the OpenBench discord channel because of my stance here. Oh well.
No hard feelings, Andrew.
No hard feelings. Thank you for all you do for such a large portion of the community.
Likewise to you, Andrew.
OpenBench is a wonderful contribution and both Ethereal and Torch are fantastic achievements. :)
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Eelco de Groot
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Re: No +100 Elo for SF on Windows for me

Post by Eelco de Groot »

I do not want to ruin a perfect ending of a thread like the above but maybe as a sort of epilogue: Maybe sometimes you have to do things the old fashioned way. Especially now. So I will vouch for Albert. If he breaks anything you can send me the bill.
'Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say, 'No, you move'.

Peggy Carter's words spoken by her niece in 'Civil War'.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan