Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

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James Constance
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Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by James Constance »

[d]8/4kb2/8/Q3K3/8/2r5/8/8 w - - 0 1

After 1. Qa7+ Kf8 2. Qa5 Stockfish as black repeats the position with Ke7 and loses the rook.
1. = (0.00): 2...Ke7
2. +/= (0.28): 2...Rg3 3.Qd8+ Kg7 4.Qd4 Rg6 5.Kf4+ Kh7 6.Qc3 Be6 7.Qa3 Kg7 8.Qe7+ Kg8 9.Ke5 Rh6 10.Qg5+ Kh7 11.Qg3 Rg6 12.Qh4+ Kg7 13.Qe7+ Bf7 14.Kf5
3. +/= (0.28): 2...Re3+ 3.Kf6 Re6+ 4.Kf5 Rh6 5.Qa3+ Kg7 6.Qc3+ Kh7 7.Ke5 Rg6 8.Kf4 Be6 9.Qa3 Kg7 10.Qe7+ Kg8 11.Ke5 Rh6 12.Qg5+ Kh7 13.Qg3

I guess evaluating the position after the first repetition as equal is some sort of optimization for engine-engine matches - but seems rather ugly in analysis. :?:
James Constance
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by James Constance »

SzG wrote: Seems logical to me. White failed to take the rook in the first place, so why would he take it in the same position later? Black can see that other king moves also lose so it makes the move that did not lose 2 moves earlier.
Hi Gabor,

The other moves don't lose (e.g. Rg3 or Re3). Also, isn't the engine giving a completely incorrect evaluation?!! :shock:
bob
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Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by bob »

James Constance wrote:[d]8/4kb2/8/Q3K3/8/2r5/8/8 w - - 0 1

After 1. Qa7+ Kf8 2. Qa5 Stockfish as black repeats the position with Ke7 and loses the rook.
1. = (0.00): 2...Ke7
2. +/= (0.28): 2...Rg3 3.Qd8+ Kg7 4.Qd4 Rg6 5.Kf4+ Kh7 6.Qc3 Be6 7.Qa3 Kg7 8.Qe7+ Kg8 9.Ke5 Rh6 10.Qg5+ Kh7 11.Qg3 Rg6 12.Qh4+ Kg7 13.Qe7+ Bf7 14.Kf5
3. +/= (0.28): 2...Re3+ 3.Kf6 Re6+ 4.Kf5 Rh6 5.Qa3+ Kg7 6.Qc3+ Kh7 7.Ke5 Rg6 8.Kf4 Be6 9.Qa3 Kg7 10.Qe7+ Kg8 11.Ke5 Rh6 12.Qg5+ Kh7 13.Qg3

I guess evaluating the position after the first repetition as equal is some sort of optimization for engine-engine matches - but seems rather ugly in analysis. :?:
Computers assume no repetitions unless they are beneficial. So yes, this will cause a bogus score, but it means somebody has already played incorrectly, otherwise the first time this was reached, why wasn't the rook taken?
syzygy
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Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by syzygy »

bob wrote:Computers assume no repetitions unless they are beneficial. So yes, this will cause a bogus score, but it means somebody has already played incorrectly, otherwise the first time this was reached, why wasn't the rook taken?
Replace "computers" by "some chess engines".

Many chess engine do handle draw by repetition correctly. The reason SF does what it does is that fixing this has been repeatedly shown to be a small Elo loss.
Vinvin
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Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by Vinvin »

syzygy wrote:The reason SF does what it does is that fixing this has been repeatedly shown to be a small Elo loss.
The question still open : Is it better to have an engine a couple of Elo points stronger but a weird repetition detection ?
James Constance
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Location: UK

Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by James Constance »

James Constance
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by James Constance »

Vinvin wrote:
syzygy wrote:The reason SF does what it does is that fixing this has been repeatedly shown to be a small Elo loss.
The question still open : Is it better to have an engine a couple of Elo points stronger but a weird repetition detection ?
Clearly, the emphasis has been on squeezing out the elo points for engine matches, at the cost of veracity in analysis.

Ugh!

There. You know my opinion! :)
James Constance
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Location: UK

Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by James Constance »

But then, I tend to use engines for analysis of human games, in which the extra few elo points make no difference, but the false evaluation detracts from the engine's usefulness. And causes an aesthetic cringe!

But if your aim is solely success against other engines, then it probably makes sense.
carldaman
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:13 am

Re: Stockfish 5 - repetition evaluation

Post by carldaman »

James Constance wrote:
Vinvin wrote:
syzygy wrote:The reason SF does what it does is that fixing this has been repeatedly shown to be a small Elo loss.
The question still open : Is it better to have an engine a couple of Elo points stronger but a weird repetition detection ?
Clearly, the emphasis has been on squeezing out the elo points for engine matches, at the cost of veracity in analysis.

Ugh!

There. You know my opinion! :)
+1 It's the 'ratings rat race' effect at work. Very unfortunate.
SF is also non-commercial, so don't expect this to be fixed any time soon.

Regards,
CL