Something very strange [Strelka]

[Dann Corbit]

I do not understand how Strelka can be both a clone of Fruit and of Rybka and yet get exactly the same evaluation as Rybka.

If the search and eval is from Fruit, even with borrowed Rybka tables, the answers should be different for a search.

Does anyone have a logical explanation?

[GenoM]

I do not understand how Strelka can be both a clone of Fruit and of Rybka and yet get exactly the same evaluation as Rybka.

If the search and eval is from Fruit, even with borrowed Rybka tables, the answers should be different for a search.

Does anyone have a logical explanation?

Your question has only one answer but some people with "eyes wide shut" do not want to see it.

Regards,
Geno

[Ryan Benitez]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

[Christopher Conkie]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

That was not the problem with Sloppy. It was the fact that the psqts used where found in Toga. By this I mean the article on Toga....see here....

http://members.aon.at/josefd/Toga%20LOG ... Manual.zip

Compare for yourself. Why he could not make his own ones was beyond me? Anyway.......these days anything is possible.

Christopher

[Dann Corbit]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

That was not the problem with Sloppy. It was the fact that the psqts used where found in Toga. By this I mean the article on Toga....see here....

http://members.aon.at/josefd/Toga%20LOG ... Manual.zip

Compare for yourself. Why he could not make his own ones was beyond me? Anyway.......these days anything is possible.

Christopher

Toga is GPL

[Dr.Ex]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

I always thought Vasiks claim Rybka would be about 20 rating points weaker had Fruit source code not appeared was simply ridiculous back then.

[Christopher Conkie]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

That was not the problem with Sloppy. It was the fact that the psqts used where found in Toga. By this I mean the article on Toga....see here....

http://members.aon.at/josefd/Toga%20LOG ... Manual.zip

Compare for yourself. Why he could not make his own ones was beyond me? Anyway.......these days anything is possible.

Christopher

Toga is GPL

Yes.....so lets all use the same piece square tables......



Let's use Toga's.

[Christopher Conkie]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

That was not the problem with Sloppy. It was the fact that the psqts used where found in Toga. By this I mean the article on Toga....see here....

http://members.aon.at/josefd/Toga%20LOG ... Manual.zip

Compare for yourself. Why he could not make his own ones was beyond me? Anyway.......these days anything is possible.

Christopher

Toga is GPL

Yes.....so lets all use the same piece square tables......



Let's use Toga's.

And.....

What license is the Strelka source released under?

This i've gotta hear.....

[Rolf]

I do not understand how Strelka can be both a clone of Fruit and of Rybka and yet get exactly the same evaluation as Rybka.

If the search and eval is from Fruit, even with borrowed Rybka tables, the answers should be different for a search.

Does anyone have a logical explanation?

Your question has only one answer but some people with "eyes wide shut" do not want to see it.

Regards,
Geno

Yes, only one answer with two parts, but both are NOT what you want to inply to confuse readers all day long.

Here is the logic, and even I as computerchess programmer lay can give this:

Strelka is a clone of Rybka (first part)

Strelka is not a clone of Fruit! Logically normal, because Rybka isnt a clone of Fruit either!

Therefore the same evaluations in Strelka and Rybka.

QED

I have a simple explanation for this difficulty to understand on your side. I've seen your really beautiful statistical tables for these tested percentage similarities of any pairs of programs. But that is a mere mechanical connection taken out of statistical results and then presented by some routine that doesnt afford too much reflection.

And then we have here a totally different problem. We have a multi-dimensional set of relationships included acting human beings with their motivation AND their different standings in the field. We have in special the different approaches to manifesting an authentic identity.

Let me simply conclude something out of the latter parameter. We have someone who publicly announced that he would show something allegedly "evil" on the side of Vasik Rajlich and his creation Rybka. In the meantime we know that this figure has tried to blackmail Rajlich by urging him to allow a commercial business with this "Strelka", what was refused. Then the figure published the source code of the Strelka 2.0 which was now defined as a clone by the Rybka author.

With such a scenario we already can conclude that the Strelka figure is wrong while Vas Rajlich is trustable. The reason for that trivial conclusion is that the Strela "author" is hiding anonymously in Russia, all allegedly, because nobody in the scene knows his identity, nor could it reveiled with civilised Western Law.

In such a case it is ethically indicated to put the hidden figure into the defense and to expect him to leave his hiding IF he has anything ethically sane to defend. Probably, after all the public data, he doesnt want to do this because he must fear justice EVEN in Russia, if he's a Russian or any other country where he might come from.

I would therefore object to what Hristo argued, as if this were a case between two equally honest persons with two different opinions. Instead that is a conflict, incl. blackmail, where one of our midst is confrontated with the evil actions of a crook who isnt even known with real life name and address.

For sure we all well meaning members of the community shouldnt come near to the anonymous figure. Instead we all should defend our best programmer, Vas Rajlich! If Osipov has something honest to defend incl his "good name", then he should come out of his closet. Nothing easier than that. He would get more respect. From all what I know in life this is improbable after his blackmail.

[Dann Corbit]

I am not sure if I understand you right but maybe Strelka and Rybka are inspired by Fruit. Just taking the tables worth a few elo out of Strelka does not make it Fruit. I guess something positive about this whole mess is that people have left sloppy alone now. Watching someone get insulted for using the GPL was crazy.

I really don't know what to think. I just think that it is astonishing that Strelka reproduces Rybka 1.0, including bugs (if -- indeed -- that really is the case).

It simply does not make sense to me, and so I am puzzled. Quite frankly, even simple and miniscule changes to either eval or search will often cause very large fluctuations in the pv output of a program. I have even seen significant changes from something as estoteric as optimizer settings.

I am genuinely wondering how such a thing is possible. I guess that if we carefully explore the outputs of both programs for a wide variety of positions then we must necessarily find lots of differences or I am really missing something.