Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary EG?

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Vinvin
Posts: 5258
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary EG?

Post by Vinvin »

I would get the EPDs and the distances for 20 longest distances to mate (and/or conversion) for each of this elementary endgames :

Level beginner

KRR vs K
KQ vs K
KP vs K
KQ vs KP
KQ vs KN
KQ vs KB
KN vs KP (draw with the N or win with the P)

Level intermediate

KBB vs K
KR vs KP
KR vs KN
KP vs KP
KBP vs KB
KBP vs KN
KNP vs KB
KNNN vs K (for run)

Level advanced

KRP vs KR
KQ vs KR
KBN vs K
KR vs KB
KQP vs KQ
KRB vs KR
KNN vs KP

Thanks,
Vincent
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Dann Corbit
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Dann Corbit »

http://kirill-kryukov.com/chess/longest ... ates.shtml

Special ones:
http://tb7.chessok.com/articles/Top8DTM_eng
HTH
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Ferdy
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Location: Philippines

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Ferdy »

Vinvin wrote:I would get the EPDs and the distances for 20 longest distances to mate (and/or conversion) for each of this elementary endgames :

Level beginner

KRR vs K
KQ vs K
KP vs K
KQ vs KP
KQ vs KN
KQ vs KB
KN vs KP (draw with the N or win with the P)

Level intermediate

KBB vs K
KR vs KP
KR vs KN
KP vs KP
KBP vs KB
KBP vs KN
KNP vs KB
KNNN vs K (for run)

Level advanced

KRP vs KR
KQ vs KR
KBN vs K
KR vs KB
KQP vs KQ
KRB vs KR
KNN vs KP

Thanks,
Vincent
I am not sure if Wilhelm can do that. Perhaps you try it.

If I have to create one, I will create complete possible positions from say KQ-k. Then analyze all those positions with chest, then save the epd with the top 20 longest mates.
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Ferdy
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Location: Philippines

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Ferdy »

I tried generating all possible pos for kqk white to play, and found that the max dm is 10, lots of dm 9
Here are the dm 10 per chest analysis.

Code: Select all

8/8/8/5k2/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - - 0 1; acn 38997; acs 0; bm Ka2 Kb1 Qa2 Qa3 Qb1+ Qb3 Qb4 Qb5+ Qb6 Qb7 Qb8 Qc1 Qc2+ Qc3 Qd2 Qd4 Qe2 Qf2+ Qg2 Qg7 Qh2 Qh8; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qc2+ Kg5 Qf2 Kg6 Ka2 Kh6 Qg2 Kh7 Kb2 Kh8 Kc3 Kh7 Kd4 Kh8 Ke5 Kh7 Kf6 Kh8 Qg7#;
8/8/4k3/8/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - - 0 1; acn 7599; acs 0; bm Ka2 Kb1 Qa2+ Qa3 Qb1 Qb3+ Qb4 Qb5 Qb6+ Qb7 Qb8 Qc1 Qc2 Qc3 Qd2 Qd4 Qe2+ Qf2 Qg2 Qg7 Qh2 Qh8; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qe2+ Kf6 Qe8 Kf5 Kb1 Kg5 Kc2 Kf5 Kd3 Kg5 Ke4 Kf6 Kf4 Kg7 Kf5 Kh7 Kf6 Kh6 Qg6#;
8/8/8/2k5/8/8/6Q1/7K w - - 0 1; acn 4820; acs 0; bm Kg1 Kh2 Qa2 Qa8 Qb2 Qb7 Qc2+ Qd2 Qe2 Qe4 Qf1 Qf2+ Qf3 Qg1+ Qg3 Qg4 Qg5+ Qg6 Qg7 Qg8 Qh2 Qh3; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qf2+ Kd5 Qc2 Ke5 Qc6 Kf5 Qd6 Ke4 Kg2 Ke3 Qd5 Kf4 Qe6 Kg5 Kg3 Kh5 Kf4 Kh4 Qg4#;
8/8/3k4/8/8/8/6Q1/7K w - - 0 1; acn 4523; acs 0; bm Kg1 Kh2 Qa2 Qa8 Qb2 Qb7 Qc2 Qd2+ Qe2 Qe4 Qf1 Qf2 Qf3 Qg1 Qg3+ Qg4 Qg5 Qg6+ Qg7 Qg8 Qh2+ Qh3; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qh2+ Ke6 Qd2 Kf6 Qd6+ Kf7 Kh2 Kg7 Qe7+ Kg8 Kh3 Kh8 Kh4 Kg8 Kh5 Kh8 Kh6 Kg8 Qg7#;
K7/1Q6/8/8/8/4k3/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 2274; acs 0; bm Ka7 Kb8 Qa6 Qa7+ Qb1 Qb2 Qb3+ Qb4 Qb5 Qb6+ Qb8 Qc6 Qc7 Qc8 Qd5 Qd7 Qe7+ Qf7 Qg2 Qg7 Qh1 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qe7+ Kf3 Qe1 Kf4 Kb8 Kg4 Kc7 Kf4 Kd6 Kg4 Ke5 Kf3 Kf5 Kg2 Kf4 Kh2 Kf3 Kh3 Qg3#;
K7/1Q6/8/8/5k2/8/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 2482; acs 0; bm Ka7 Kb8 Qa6 Qa7 Qb1 Qb2 Qb3 Qb4+ Qb5 Qb6 Qb8+ Qc6 Qc7+ Qc8 Qd5 Qd7 Qe7 Qf7+ Qg2 Qg7 Qh1 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qc7+ Kg4 Qf7 Kg5 Qf3 Kg6 Kb8 Kh6 Qg3 Kh7 Kc8 Kh8 Kd8 Kh7 Ke7 Kh8 Kf7 Kh7 Qg7#;
7K/6Q1/8/8/8/3k4/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 1596; acs 0; bm Kg8 Kh7 Qa1 Qa7 Qb2 Qb7 Qc7 Qd7+ Qe5 Qe7 Qf6 Qf7 Qf8 Qg1 Qg2 Qg3+ Qg4 Qg5 Qg6+ Qg8 Qh6 Qh7+; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qh7+ Ke3 Qd7 Kf3 Qd3+ Kf2 Kh7 Kg2 Qe2+ Kg3 Kg7 Kh3 Kf6 Kg3 Kf5 Kh3 Kf4 Kh4 Qg4#;
7K/6Q1/8/8/2k5/8/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 1614; acs 0; bm Kg8 Kh7 Qa1 Qa7 Qb2 Qb7 Qc7+ Qd7 Qe5 Qe7 Qf6 Qf7+ Qf8 Qg1 Qg2 Qg3 Qg4+ Qg5 Qg6 Qg8+ Qh6 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qf7+ Kd4 Qc7 Ke4 Qc3 Kf4 Qd3 Ke5 Kg7 Ke6 Qd4 Kf5 Qe3 Kg4 Kg6 Kh4 Kf5 Kh5 Qg5#;
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Vinvin
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Vinvin »

Ferdy wrote:I tried generating all possible pos for kqk white to play, and found that the max dm is 10, lots of dm 9
Here are the dm 10 per chest analysis.

Code: Select all

8/8/8/5k2/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - - 0 1; acn 38997; acs 0; bm Ka2 Kb1 Qa2 Qa3 Qb1+ Qb3 Qb4 Qb5+ Qb6 Qb7 Qb8 Qc1 Qc2+ Qc3 Qd2 Qd4 Qe2 Qf2+ Qg2 Qg7 Qh2 Qh8; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qc2+ Kg5 Qf2 Kg6 Ka2 Kh6 Qg2 Kh7 Kb2 Kh8 Kc3 Kh7 Kd4 Kh8 Ke5 Kh7 Kf6 Kh8 Qg7#;
8/8/4k3/8/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - - 0 1; acn 7599; acs 0; bm Ka2 Kb1 Qa2+ Qa3 Qb1 Qb3+ Qb4 Qb5 Qb6+ Qb7 Qb8 Qc1 Qc2 Qc3 Qd2 Qd4 Qe2+ Qf2 Qg2 Qg7 Qh2 Qh8; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qe2+ Kf6 Qe8 Kf5 Kb1 Kg5 Kc2 Kf5 Kd3 Kg5 Ke4 Kf6 Kf4 Kg7 Kf5 Kh7 Kf6 Kh6 Qg6#;
8/8/8/2k5/8/8/6Q1/7K w - - 0 1; acn 4820; acs 0; bm Kg1 Kh2 Qa2 Qa8 Qb2 Qb7 Qc2+ Qd2 Qe2 Qe4 Qf1 Qf2+ Qf3 Qg1+ Qg3 Qg4 Qg5+ Qg6 Qg7 Qg8 Qh2 Qh3; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qf2+ Kd5 Qc2 Ke5 Qc6 Kf5 Qd6 Ke4 Kg2 Ke3 Qd5 Kf4 Qe6 Kg5 Kg3 Kh5 Kf4 Kh4 Qg4#;
8/8/3k4/8/8/8/6Q1/7K w - - 0 1; acn 4523; acs 0; bm Kg1 Kh2 Qa2 Qa8 Qb2 Qb7 Qc2 Qd2+ Qe2 Qe4 Qf1 Qf2 Qf3 Qg1 Qg3+ Qg4 Qg5 Qg6+ Qg7 Qg8 Qh2+ Qh3; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qh2+ Ke6 Qd2 Kf6 Qd6+ Kf7 Kh2 Kg7 Qe7+ Kg8 Kh3 Kh8 Kh4 Kg8 Kh5 Kh8 Kh6 Kg8 Qg7#;
K7/1Q6/8/8/8/4k3/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 2274; acs 0; bm Ka7 Kb8 Qa6 Qa7+ Qb1 Qb2 Qb3+ Qb4 Qb5 Qb6+ Qb8 Qc6 Qc7 Qc8 Qd5 Qd7 Qe7+ Qf7 Qg2 Qg7 Qh1 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qe7+ Kf3 Qe1 Kf4 Kb8 Kg4 Kc7 Kf4 Kd6 Kg4 Ke5 Kf3 Kf5 Kg2 Kf4 Kh2 Kf3 Kh3 Qg3#;
K7/1Q6/8/8/5k2/8/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 2482; acs 0; bm Ka7 Kb8 Qa6 Qa7 Qb1 Qb2 Qb3 Qb4+ Qb5 Qb6 Qb8+ Qc6 Qc7+ Qc8 Qd5 Qd7 Qe7 Qf7+ Qg2 Qg7 Qh1 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qc7+ Kg4 Qf7 Kg5 Qf3 Kg6 Kb8 Kh6 Qg3 Kh7 Kc8 Kh8 Kd8 Kh7 Ke7 Kh8 Kf7 Kh7 Qg7#;
7K/6Q1/8/8/8/3k4/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 1596; acs 0; bm Kg8 Kh7 Qa1 Qa7 Qb2 Qb7 Qc7 Qd7+ Qe5 Qe7 Qf6 Qf7 Qf8 Qg1 Qg2 Qg3+ Qg4 Qg5 Qg6+ Qg8 Qh6 Qh7+; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qh7+ Ke3 Qd7 Kf3 Qd3+ Kf2 Kh7 Kg2 Qe2+ Kg3 Kg7 Kh3 Kf6 Kg3 Kf5 Kh3 Kf4 Kh4 Qg4#;
7K/6Q1/8/8/2k5/8/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 1614; acs 0; bm Kg8 Kh7 Qa1 Qa7 Qb2 Qb7 Qc7+ Qd7 Qe5 Qe7 Qf6 Qf7+ Qf8 Qg1 Qg2 Qg3 Qg4+ Qg5 Qg6 Qg8+ Qh6 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qf7+ Kd4 Qc7 Ke4 Qc3 Kf4 Qd3 Ke5 Kg7 Ke6 Qd4 Kf5 Qe3 Kg4 Kg6 Kh4 Kf5 Kh5 Qg5#;
Thanks, Ferdinand ! Good beginning.
Are there "same" positions by symmetry ?
I think to contact Kirill Kryukov, may be he can help.
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hgm
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Full name: H G Muller

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by hgm »

Ferdy wrote:If I have to create one, I will create complete possible positions from say KQ-k. Then analyze all those positions with chest, then save the epd with the top 20 longest mates.
Although feasible for KQK, this is not really a competitive method at all.

Better would be to take my toy EGT generator, and adapt that by at the end run through the array tb[] it created, to hunt for codes with the sought DTM (which is in the 7 uppermost bits of each byte), and let it print the indexes for those that match, in octal. The indexes can be easily translated to positions, as they just concatenate the square numbers of the various pieces. (Except that for the white King, which is in the most-significant bits, the middle rank bit is displaced to the upper file bit to make the indexes contiguous, as the white King is restrained to the canonical triangle a1-d1-d4, and its file number thus runs only up to 3. So 064466 (octal!) in KQK would mean the black King is on 66 (g7), the Queen on 44 (e5) and the white King on 22 (000.110 -> 010.010, b2).

Unfortunately the generator is for 8-fold-symmetric positions, and thus cannot do end-games with Pawns.
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Ferdy
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Location: Philippines

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Ferdy »

Vinvin wrote:
Ferdy wrote:I tried generating all possible pos for kqk white to play, and found that the max dm is 10, lots of dm 9
Here are the dm 10 per chest analysis.

Code: Select all

8/8/8/5k2/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - - 0 1; acn 38997; acs 0; bm Ka2 Kb1 Qa2 Qa3 Qb1+ Qb3 Qb4 Qb5+ Qb6 Qb7 Qb8 Qc1 Qc2+ Qc3 Qd2 Qd4 Qe2 Qf2+ Qg2 Qg7 Qh2 Qh8; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qc2+ Kg5 Qf2 Kg6 Ka2 Kh6 Qg2 Kh7 Kb2 Kh8 Kc3 Kh7 Kd4 Kh8 Ke5 Kh7 Kf6 Kh8 Qg7#;
8/8/4k3/8/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - - 0 1; acn 7599; acs 0; bm Ka2 Kb1 Qa2+ Qa3 Qb1 Qb3+ Qb4 Qb5 Qb6+ Qb7 Qb8 Qc1 Qc2 Qc3 Qd2 Qd4 Qe2+ Qf2 Qg2 Qg7 Qh2 Qh8; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qe2+ Kf6 Qe8 Kf5 Kb1 Kg5 Kc2 Kf5 Kd3 Kg5 Ke4 Kf6 Kf4 Kg7 Kf5 Kh7 Kf6 Kh6 Qg6#;
8/8/8/2k5/8/8/6Q1/7K w - - 0 1; acn 4820; acs 0; bm Kg1 Kh2 Qa2 Qa8 Qb2 Qb7 Qc2+ Qd2 Qe2 Qe4 Qf1 Qf2+ Qf3 Qg1+ Qg3 Qg4 Qg5+ Qg6 Qg7 Qg8 Qh2 Qh3; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qf2+ Kd5 Qc2 Ke5 Qc6 Kf5 Qd6 Ke4 Kg2 Ke3 Qd5 Kf4 Qe6 Kg5 Kg3 Kh5 Kf4 Kh4 Qg4#;
8/8/3k4/8/8/8/6Q1/7K w - - 0 1; acn 4523; acs 0; bm Kg1 Kh2 Qa2 Qa8 Qb2 Qb7 Qc2 Qd2+ Qe2 Qe4 Qf1 Qf2 Qf3 Qg1 Qg3+ Qg4 Qg5 Qg6+ Qg7 Qg8 Qh2+ Qh3; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qh2+ Ke6 Qd2 Kf6 Qd6+ Kf7 Kh2 Kg7 Qe7+ Kg8 Kh3 Kh8 Kh4 Kg8 Kh5 Kh8 Kh6 Kg8 Qg7#;
K7/1Q6/8/8/8/4k3/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 2274; acs 0; bm Ka7 Kb8 Qa6 Qa7+ Qb1 Qb2 Qb3+ Qb4 Qb5 Qb6+ Qb8 Qc6 Qc7 Qc8 Qd5 Qd7 Qe7+ Qf7 Qg2 Qg7 Qh1 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qe7+ Kf3 Qe1 Kf4 Kb8 Kg4 Kc7 Kf4 Kd6 Kg4 Ke5 Kf3 Kf5 Kg2 Kf4 Kh2 Kf3 Kh3 Qg3#;
K7/1Q6/8/8/5k2/8/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 2482; acs 0; bm Ka7 Kb8 Qa6 Qa7 Qb1 Qb2 Qb3 Qb4+ Qb5 Qb6 Qb8+ Qc6 Qc7+ Qc8 Qd5 Qd7 Qe7 Qf7+ Qg2 Qg7 Qh1 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qc7+ Kg4 Qf7 Kg5 Qf3 Kg6 Kb8 Kh6 Qg3 Kh7 Kc8 Kh8 Kd8 Kh7 Ke7 Kh8 Kf7 Kh7 Qg7#;
7K/6Q1/8/8/8/3k4/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 1596; acs 0; bm Kg8 Kh7 Qa1 Qa7 Qb2 Qb7 Qc7 Qd7+ Qe5 Qe7 Qf6 Qf7 Qf8 Qg1 Qg2 Qg3+ Qg4 Qg5 Qg6+ Qg8 Qh6 Qh7+; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qh7+ Ke3 Qd7 Kf3 Qd3+ Kf2 Kh7 Kg2 Qe2+ Kg3 Kg7 Kh3 Kf6 Kg3 Kf5 Kh3 Kf4 Kh4 Qg4#;
7K/6Q1/8/8/2k5/8/8/8 w - - 0 1; acn 1614; acs 0; bm Kg8 Kh7 Qa1 Qa7 Qb2 Qb7 Qc7+ Qd7 Qe5 Qe7 Qf6 Qf7+ Qf8 Qg1 Qg2 Qg3 Qg4+ Qg5 Qg6 Qg8+ Qh6 Qh7; ce 32748; dm 10; pv Qf7+ Kd4 Qc7 Ke4 Qc3 Kf4 Qd3 Ke5 Kg7 Ke6 Qd4 Kf5 Qe3 Kg4 Kg6 Kh4 Kf5 Kh5 Qg5#;
Thanks, Ferdinand ! Good beginning.
Are there "same" positions by symmetry ?
I think to contact Kirill Kryukov, may be he can help.
I am not checking on symmetry, I just did a systematic looping on 64 squares dropping kings, and queen (with some checks like wking and bking should not be too close),
other position legality checks are handled by PCL, then save the epd, let chest analyze it, then extract the largest dm from chest output.
Better to contact Kirill.
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Ferdy
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Location: Philippines

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Ferdy »

hgm wrote:
Ferdy wrote:If I have to create one, I will create complete possible positions from say KQ-k. Then analyze all those positions with chest, then save the epd with the top 20 longest mates.
Although feasible for KQK, this is not really a competitive method at all.

Better would be to take my toy EGT generator, and adapt that by at the end run through the array tb[] it created, to hunt for codes with the sought DTM (which is in the 7 uppermost bits of each byte), and let it print the indexes for those that match, in octal. The indexes can be easily translated to positions, as they just concatenate the square numbers of the various pieces. (Except that for the white King, which is in the most-significant bits, the middle rank bit is displaced to the upper file bit to make the indexes contiguous, as the white King is restrained to the canonical triangle a1-d1-d4, and its file number thus runs only up to 3. So 064466 (octal!) in KQK would mean the black King is on 66 (g7), the Queen on 44 (e5) and the white King on 22 (000.110 -> 010.010, b2).

Unfortunately the generator is for 8-fold-symmetric positions, and thus cannot do end-games with Pawns.
I know it is not competitive :), I just considered it as an exercise. I am not doing the other configurations since it will generate so many positions.
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Vinvin
Posts: 5258
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:40 am
Full name: Vincent Lejeune

Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Vinvin »

I finally contacted Kirill Kryukov via the EGTB forum : http://kirill-kryukov.com/chess/discuss ... f=6&t=8256

I made a zip file with a lot of these EPD positions here : https://www.dropbox.com/s/3or245ruu7r2n ... D.ZIP?dl=0
There's distance to mate for each position.

Level beginner
KRRK-7plus-moves.epd
KQK-9moves.epd
KRK-14plus-moves.epd
KPK-23plus-moves.epd
KBBK-17plus-moves.epd

Level intermediate
KPKP-30plus-moves.epd
KPKN-27plus-moves.epd
KNKP-6plus-moves.epd
KQKB-16plus-moves.epd
KQKN-20plus-moves.epd
KRKP-24plus-moves.epd
KRPKR.epd
KQKP-25plus-moves.epd
KNPKB.epd
KRKPP-34plus-moves.epd
KQKQ-12moves.epd
KNPKN-51-55moves.epd
KNNNK-19plus-moves.epd
KRPPKR-70moves.epd

Level advanced
KBNK-32plus-moves.epd
KRKB-25plus-moves.epd
KRNKR-20moves.epd
KRNKR-31plus-moves.epd
KQKBN.epd
KRBKR.epd
KQKBB-60moves.epd
KRKBP-32plus-moves.epd
KRKN-37plus-moves.epd
KNPKN-40-41moves.epd
KBPKB-45plus-moves.epd
KBPKN-30-40moves.epd
KBPKP-63plus-moves.epd
KQRKQ-30plus-moves.epd

Level expert
KNNKP-40moves.epd
KNNKP-45moves.epd
KQKR-20moves.epd
KQKR-33plus-moves.epd
KQPKQ-40-60moves.epd
KQKNN-55plus-moves.epd
KQKRN-37-39moves.epd
KQKRN-40-55moves.epd
KQKRB-40-49moves.epd
KQKRP-select55-80moves.epd
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Dann Corbit
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Re: Is there tools to get the longest DTM/DTC for elementary

Post by Dann Corbit »

You can create equal set with black to get this:
k7/1q6/8/8/8/4K3/8/8 b - -
k7/1q6/8/8/5K2/8/8/8 b - -
K7/1Q6/8/8/8/4k3/8/8 w - -
K7/1Q6/8/8/5k2/8/8/8 w - -
8/8/8/5k2/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - -
8/8/8/5K2/8/8/1q6/k7 b - -
8/8/8/2k5/8/8/6Q1/7K w - -
8/8/8/2K5/8/8/6q1/7k b - -
8/8/4k3/8/8/8/1Q6/K7 w - -
8/8/4K3/8/8/8/1q6/k7 b - -
8/8/3k4/8/8/8/6Q1/7K w - -
8/8/3K4/8/8/8/6q1/7k b - -
7k/6q1/8/8/8/3K4/8/8 b - -
7k/6q1/8/8/2K5/8/8/8 b - -
7K/6Q1/8/8/8/3k4/8/8 w - -
7K/6Q1/8/8/2k5/8/8/8 w - -
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