Best (computer chess) opening

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Henk
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Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Henk » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:57 pm

According to Stockfish 7 we should play Italian chess opening. It searched all the moves in analysis mode up to depth 30.

Other variations passing by: Petroff defense, French Tarrasch, Philidor exchange, Ruy Lopez Exchange. But this one appeared to be best. Bit boring or not ?

[d] r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 1 5

Henk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Henk » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:19 pm

Next three moves:


[d] r1bqk2r/ppp2ppp/2np1n2/2b1p3/P1B1P3/3P1N2/1PP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq a3 0 2

And here black plays a5.

Janza
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Janza » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:26 pm

If you follow top level chess, Italian opening has got sudden resurgence recently. Super GMs are coming with new ideas and are trying to mix move orders. Although white won some nice games, if black is well prepared, he normally has no problems.

The reason why it is popular is probably not because one of the two strongest engine thinks it is the best, but because Super GMs are just tired of facing Berlin defense in Ruy Lopez. :D A couple of years ago, people Scotch became fashionable again for the same reasons Objectively, I still think 3. Bb5 is the most critical test for advantage and 3. Nf6 is probably the best reply.

Henk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Henk » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:30 pm

Stockfish 7 prefers 4. Bc6: (Ruy Lopez exchange variation). But that's after 3. .. a6

Uri Blass
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Uri Blass » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:07 pm

Henk wrote:According to Stockfish 7 we should play Italian chess opening. It searched all the moves in analysis mode up to depth 30.

Other variations passing by: Petroff defense, French Tarrasch, Philidor exchange, Ruy Lopez Exchange. But this one appeared to be best. Bit boring or not ?

[d] r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 1 5
I think that depth 30 is too small and stockfish7 is an old program when there are newer developement versions.

I do not trust this result.

Uri

Henk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Henk » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:09 pm

Ok repeat it on your computer with larger depths and better version.

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Ozymandias
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Ozymandias » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:08 pm

Uri Blass wrote:I think that depth 30 is too small and stockfish7 is an old program when there are newer developement versions.

I do not trust this result.

Uri
It isn't just a question of program or depth, if it were a sound method, Let's Check would rule, but it doesn't.

Dann Corbit
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:26 pm

Here is my analysis record for that position:
r1bqk2r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/2b1p3/2B1P3/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - acd 37; acs 1660; bm O-O; c3 "Nbd2"; cce 24; ce 14; id "es-dc-neutral.0525"; pm c3 {7853} Nc3 {1634} O-O {1474} Bb3 {209} Bg5 {138} Be3 {127} Nbd2 {37} h3 {14} Ng5 {8} a3 {8} Qe2 {3} a4 {2}; pv O-O O-O h3 a5 Re1 Be6 Bb5 Bb6 d4 Ne7 Bd3 Ng6 Be3 c6 Nbd2 h6 b3 Bc7 c4 Bb6 Nb1 Nh5 d5 Bd7 Bc2 Bxe3 Rxe3 Ngf4 dxc6 Bxc6 Nc3 Nf6 a3 Qe7 Re1 b6 Nd5 Bxd5 exd5; white_wins 4219; black_wins 3614; draws 3265; Opening Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Italian Four Knights Variation ; CaxtonID: 908 ECO: C50;

It is badly under-analyzed according to my rule of one second for each time it has been played.

Interestingly, this is the first opening my dad ever taught me.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:50 pm

Marco is an Italian, of course it will play an Italian Opening.

My latest observations are that white gets the biggest possible advantage in the (very strangely) completely untried and unresearched opening 1.e4 e5 2. c4!

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/2P1P3/8/PP1P1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq c3 0 2

or 1.e4 c5 2.c4!

[d]rnbqkbnr/pp1ppppp/8/2p5/2P1P3/8/PP1P1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq c3 0 2

or, starting with c4, 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4!

[d]rnbqkb1r/pppp1ppp/5n2/4p3/2P1P3/2N5/PP1P1PPP/R1BQKBNR b KQkq e3 0 3

All 3 lines are basically part of the same still unnamed opening with transpositions, and my personal opinion is that precisely here white gets the biggest possible advantage with optimal play.

White firmly controls the center and has good chances to start a promising kingside pawn attack earlier, a single black outpost in the center on d4 hardly compensates that.

Another 40 years until SF and Komodo get it. :)

My second choice (second-best white choice) is 1.d3! d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3.g3

[d]rnbqkb1r/ppp1pppp/5n2/3p4/8/3P1NP1/PPP1PP1P/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 0 3

and the resulting King's Indian Attack (KIA, basically the same as the KID for white with a spare tempo) is very favourable for white.
As far as I remember, Fischer had close to a perfect score with this opening.

So 1.d3 or possible transpositions is indeed a very good move, though engines tend to eval it with a negative score. Of course, after 1.d3 white has a significant advantage, my Komodo shoot-out only confirmed this, as white scored significantly above 50%.

Another 40 years for engines to understand 1.d3 is very good. :)

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:12 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: My latest observations are that white gets the biggest possible advantage in the (very strangely) completely untried and unresearched opening 1.e4 e5 2. c4!
after 1.e4 e5 2.c4? there's a hole on d4, and after 2...Nf6
and White has to play 2.d3, blocking his bishop on f1
So i doubt it's a good idea.

1.d3 is playable because it often leads to Kings-Indian (defense)
with colours reversed, and if the Black player has
better positional understanding than White this might
be a good trick. Just with c4 e5 (Sicilian reversed) it
does not mean automatically that White has an advantage.
jefk

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