Release : Chess System Tal EXTREME

[mclane]

The funny thing ist IMO the first thing the masses do is let CSTal or absurd play against stockfish.
As if this makes any sense at all. But they do it.
And then - because it is not winning, they post "how weak it is".

Oh man.

[Leto]

I'm having issues running Absurd and Chess System Tal Extreme on the Aquarium GUI, they refuse to run on that GUI. I am able to run them fine on the Nimzo 3D GUI.

[Rebel]

If all sacrificial attacks worked they wouldn’t be sacrificial attacks. If they always worked Cstal would be 200 Elo above SF in the rating lists, and it isn’t, so they don’t.
What exactly do you want?

I was not really asking for anything here, just sharing my thoughts and observations. I think that CSTal/Rebel is a most interesting experiment to improve on the perceived beauty of the games and I follow its development with interest.

To also answer to the two following posts - if I understood correctly that there is some kind of "parameter" "extremism" that you can vary in training: I wonder how CSTal games with this leading to an ELO 2500 and ELO 2200 level would look like. A 3000 ELO level if real is still just too strong to make it viable as an opponent for humans.

Absurd 1.0 (or better Absurd-3000 as it turned out) is (was) just an example how easy it now is to create a higher ranked style engine once you have created a solid network controlled by a parameter. It takes one day to create the network and one day to test it, how convenient. To make an elo rated Absurd-2500 now is a piece of cake, however I am not going to put my brand name to it, neither can I stand the garbage moves it surely will play. Absurd-3000 is already over the top.

You think 2500 Elo is garbage..?

Making too many false sacrifices.

Code: Select all

 STYLE   King          Short           
 Total  Attack   %     Games   %     Sacs    %    Engine
706305  228566 24.1%  164006 51.6%  313733 56.6%  Absurd 1.0  
524401  214038 23.2%  153444 57.7%  156919 38.5%  Chess System Tal Extreme  
511122  213311 23.7%  149143 57.4%  148668 37.4%  Rebel Extreme 1.1  
486486  165661 25.4%  171709 60.5%  149116 35.8%  Patricia 3.01  
482444  185940 25.3%  161609 61.3%  134895 36.1%  CSTal 2.1 EAS  
407780  158700 27.0%   99659 49.7%  149421 40.8%  Patricia 5 xtremeEAS  
397519  135669 23.4%  164415 64.3%   97435 26.7%  Rebel EAS 3.0 

Look at the sacrifices, 313.733, almost double than Chess System Tal Extreme, nice, but also a sing of many false sacrifices, over the top definitely.

By engine standards, yes, but for human preparation it's not at all. To anyone on this forum I'd say the same thing: try over the board to defend against an aggressive FIDE 2500 Elo player, it is a daunting task.

Playing Chess System Tal Extreme or Rebel Extreme 1.1 will drive any GM crazy IMO.

My guess is 2800 - 3100 Elo is the sweet spot so I suppose you've achieved the goal. However, this type of thing is undervalued by the community IMO as club players to IM's are looking for interesting ideas all the time in their prep.

Indeed, but then use Chess System Tal Extreme, Rebel Extreme 1.1 and Patricia 5.0 for good ideas, not Absurd 1.0

Nevertheless I will give it a try to proof my point, why not.

[Peter Berger]

+1

I am not so convinced about your +1 here, given that you can't stand the garbage moves and wouldn't want to stick your brand name to it if taken to more of an extreme.
Anyway, Chris and you have made your concept clear.

To something else: at the slow time controls I enjoy to observe there seems to be a problem with the EBF of Absurd 1.0. The low depths work fast enough per usual but from about depth 20 it often just gets stuck somewhere. I didn't notice this phenomenon with CS Tal Extreme. Currently I don't get the impression that it might perform at 3000 level at slower time controls against say Crafty as it simply can't outsearch it as all other versions usually do. Is this plausible by concept - or would it be useful to collect data on this?

[chrisw]

+1

I am not so convinced about your +1 here, given that you can't stand the garbage moves and wouldn't want to stick your brand name to it if taken to more of an extreme.
Anyway, Chris and you have made your concept clear.

To something else: at the slow time controls I enjoy to observe there seems to be a problem with the EBF of Absurd 1.0. The low depths work fast enough per usual but from about depth 20 it often just gets stuck somewhere. I didn't notice this phenomenon with CS Tal Extreme. Currently I don't get the impression that it might perform at 3000 level at slower time controls against say Crafty as it simply can't outsearch it as all other versions usually do. Is this plausible by concept - or would it be useful to collect data on this?

If it generates wild deep lines with lots of checks (highly plausible with Absurd) then there going to be a lot less prying and a lot more extension of the wild positions. Cstal has plenty of extension and “do more search” heuristics for these cases. May cause EBF++. What are you complaining about, we said it gets weaker with more crazy?
I know, we’ll make it crazy without mistakes and get 400 Elo over SF. Or we’ll weaken it so weak players stand a chance, but then you’ll complain it plays losing moves. Or we’ll make it exciting and sacrificial and you say sometimes it loses. I give up.

[chrisw]

I'm having issues running Absurd and Chess System Tal Extreme on the Aquarium GUI, they refuse to run on that GUI. I am able to run them fine on the Nimzo 3D GUI.

I’ll correct the typos above. GUIs that try to be too clever by half often can’t run bog standard chess engines that conform to protocol.

[Rebel]

+1

I am not so convinced about your +1 here, given that you can't stand the garbage moves and wouldn't want to stick your brand name to it if taken to more of an extreme.
Anyway, Chris and you have made your concept clear.

To something else: at the slow time controls I enjoy to observe there seems to be a problem with the EBF of Absurd 1.0. The low depths work fast enough per usual but from about depth 20 it often just gets stuck somewhere. I didn't notice this phenomenon with CS Tal Extreme. Currently I don't get the impression that it might perform at 3000 level at slower time controls against say Crafty as it simply can't outsearch it as all other versions usually do. Is this plausible by concept - or would it be useful to collect data on this?

Chris already answered you, hope you get what he said.

Like to add, the game against Crafty proves the repeated points I am making, no plan, many garbage moves. That won't happen with CSTAL-Extreme and Rebel-Extreme 1.1, there is always something to play for.

Consider Absurd 1.0 as entertainment.

Replay at the amazing games it can (emphasis added) play, especially : the Games of ABSURD 1.0 sorted on sacrifices

https://rebel7775.wixsite.com/rebel/absurd-1-0