My favourite Crafty game

[A Distel]

And the most embarrasing thing is that they need Stockfish to perform the revenge for Rybka. How pathetic...

Yeah, with hacky sack Rybka it was downhill all the way for their Forum!

[Joost Buijs]

anyone know if there's a reason why crafty is more or less at the same strength level since years? I don't know robert hyatt very well but he seems very competent to me and I know he is in the business for decades now.

I think I remember there is (or was) something like a "crafty barrier" when it comes to chess engine strength

Crafty's playing strength increased the last few years by 400 Elo points, so Robert Hyatt certainly made a lot of progress. Creating a strong chess engine is not very easy, basically it is a process of trial and error and when you find something that works well in practice you are a happy camper. This has not much to do with knowledge or programming skills.
The "crafty barrier" is something I never heard of.

[Graham Banks]

anyone know if there's a reason why crafty is more or less at the same strength level since years? I don't know robert hyatt very well but he seems very competent to me and I know he is in the business for decades now.

I think I remember there is (or was) something like a "crafty barrier" when it comes to chess engine strength

Crafty's playing strength increased the last few years by 400 Elo points, so Robert Hyatt certainly made a lot of progress. Creating a strong chess engine is not very easy, basically it is a process of trial and error and when you find something that works well in practice you are a happy camper. This has not much to do with knowledge or programming skills.
The "crafty barrier" is something I never heard of.

Just over 300 Elo points on 1 core between 2006 and 2014.

Code: Select all

CCRL 40/40 Rating List - Custom engine selection
574649 games played by 1604 programs, run by 19 testers
Ponder off, General books (up to 12 moves), 3-4-5 piece EGTB
Time control: Equivalent to 40 moves in 40 minutes on Athlon 64 X2 4600+ (2.4 GHz)
Computed on April 11, 2015 with Bayeselo based on 574'649 games
Tested by CCRL team, 2005-2015, http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/

Rank                Engine                 Elo   +    -   Score  AvOp  Games
1 Crafty 23.8 64-bit 4CPU              2917  +34  -34  47.8%  +15.4   251
  Crafty 24.1 64-bit 4CPU              2890  +42  -43  36.9%  +82.1   176
  Crafty 23.4 64-bit 4CPU              2874  +39  -39  48.3%  +10.5   208
  Crafty 23.3 64-bit 4CPU              2850  +30  -30  45.0%  +32.8   360
  Crafty 23.8 64-bit                   2815  +23  -23  51.5%   -9.1   604
  Crafty 23.1 64-bit 4CPU              2809  +33  -33  48.6%  +11.7   291
  Crafty 24.1 64-bit                   2803  +26  -26  47.7%  +15.1   461
  Crafty 23.6 64-bit                   2787  +28  -28  54.5%  -28.1   380
  Crafty 24.0 64-bit                   2775  +28  -28  46.2%  +24.4   384
  Crafty 23.3 64-bit                   2764  +36  -36  51.0%   -7.9   248
  Crafty 23.0 64-bit 4CPU              2761  +18  -18  39.2%  +76.0  1072
  Crafty 23.5 64-bit                   2750  +28  -28  51.2%  -10.4   406
  Crafty 23.4 64-bit                   2738  +28  -28  45.7%  +25.7   399
  Crafty 23.4 32-bit                   2734  +20  -20  50.8%   -5.7   861
  Crafty 23.3 32-bit                   2717  +33  -33  51.8%  -13.1   283
  Crafty 23.2 64-bit                   2711  +30  -30  49.0%   +6.7   357
  Crafty 23.2 32-bit                   2696  +32  -32  47.8%  +16.0   320
  Crafty 23.1 32-bit                   2685  +19  -19  44.5%  +35.6   876
  Crafty 23.0 32-bit                   2629  +29  -29  49.9%   +1.8   380
  Crafty 22.8 32-bit                   2603  +36  -36  49.0%   +5.3   253
  Crafty 22.4 32-bit                   2586  +36  -36  48.6%   +9.1   246
  Crafty 22.10 32-bit                  2567  +34  -34  45.7%  +24.7   288
  Crafty 22.1 32-bit                   2564  +28  -28  50.2%   -4.0   421
  Crafty 21.6 32-bit                   2547  +34  -34  48.0%  +11.7   296
  Crafty 22.0 32-bit                   2544  +35  -36  47.2%  +18.2   264
  Crafty 21.5 32-bit                   2530  +33  -33  46.3%  +27.9   326
  Crafty 20.13 32-bit                  2514  +36  -36  46.8%  +23.5   250
  Crafty 20.14 32-bit                  2513  +29  -29  45.0%  +35.4   400
  Crafty 20.11 32-bit                  2499  +36  -36  49.4%   +5.2   267

[Joost Buijs]

anyone know if there's a reason why crafty is more or less at the same strength level since years? I don't know robert hyatt very well but he seems very competent to me and I know he is in the business for decades now.

I think I remember there is (or was) something like a "crafty barrier" when it comes to chess engine strength

Crafty's playing strength increased the last few years by 400 Elo points, so Robert Hyatt certainly made a lot of progress. Creating a strong chess engine is not very easy, basically it is a process of trial and error and when you find something that works well in practice you are a happy camper. This has not much to do with knowledge or programming skills.
The "crafty barrier" is something I never heard of.

Just over 300 Elo points on 1 core between 2006 and 2014.

Code: Select all

CCRL 40/40 Rating List - Custom engine selection
574649 games played by 1604 programs, run by 19 testers
Ponder off, General books (up to 12 moves), 3-4-5 piece EGTB
Time control: Equivalent to 40 moves in 40 minutes on Athlon 64 X2 4600+ (2.4 GHz)
Computed on April 11, 2015 with Bayeselo based on 574'649 games
Tested by CCRL team, 2005-2015, http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/

Rank                Engine                 Elo   +    -   Score  AvOp  Games
1 Crafty 23.8 64-bit 4CPU              2917  +34  -34  47.8%  +15.4   251
  Crafty 24.1 64-bit 4CPU              2890  +42  -43  36.9%  +82.1   176
  Crafty 23.4 64-bit 4CPU              2874  +39  -39  48.3%  +10.5   208
  Crafty 23.3 64-bit 4CPU              2850  +30  -30  45.0%  +32.8   360
  Crafty 23.8 64-bit                   2815  +23  -23  51.5%   -9.1   604
  Crafty 23.1 64-bit 4CPU              2809  +33  -33  48.6%  +11.7   291
  Crafty 24.1 64-bit                   2803  +26  -26  47.7%  +15.1   461
  Crafty 23.6 64-bit                   2787  +28  -28  54.5%  -28.1   380
  Crafty 24.0 64-bit                   2775  +28  -28  46.2%  +24.4   384
  Crafty 23.3 64-bit                   2764  +36  -36  51.0%   -7.9   248
  Crafty 23.0 64-bit 4CPU              2761  +18  -18  39.2%  +76.0  1072
  Crafty 23.5 64-bit                   2750  +28  -28  51.2%  -10.4   406
  Crafty 23.4 64-bit                   2738  +28  -28  45.7%  +25.7   399
  Crafty 23.4 32-bit                   2734  +20  -20  50.8%   -5.7   861
  Crafty 23.3 32-bit                   2717  +33  -33  51.8%  -13.1   283
  Crafty 23.2 64-bit                   2711  +30  -30  49.0%   +6.7   357
  Crafty 23.2 32-bit                   2696  +32  -32  47.8%  +16.0   320
  Crafty 23.1 32-bit                   2685  +19  -19  44.5%  +35.6   876
  Crafty 23.0 32-bit                   2629  +29  -29  49.9%   +1.8   380
  Crafty 22.8 32-bit                   2603  +36  -36  49.0%   +5.3   253
  Crafty 22.4 32-bit                   2586  +36  -36  48.6%   +9.1   246
  Crafty 22.10 32-bit                  2567  +34  -34  45.7%  +24.7   288
  Crafty 22.1 32-bit                   2564  +28  -28  50.2%   -4.0   421
  Crafty 21.6 32-bit                   2547  +34  -34  48.0%  +11.7   296
  Crafty 22.0 32-bit                   2544  +35  -36  47.2%  +18.2   264
  Crafty 21.5 32-bit                   2530  +33  -33  46.3%  +27.9   326
  Crafty 20.13 32-bit                  2514  +36  -36  46.8%  +23.5   250
  Crafty 20.14 32-bit                  2513  +29  -29  45.0%  +35.4   400
  Crafty 20.11 32-bit                  2499  +36  -36  49.4%   +5.2   267

I didn't realize that it is already that long ago when Crafty was at 2500 level, when you get older time flies. But even a 300 Elo increase is not that bad.

[styx]

Oh I always thought that Crafty was around 2700 Elo

I was wrong. I'm sorry

[A Distel]

anyone know if there's a reason why crafty is more or less at the same strength level since years? I don't know robert hyatt very well but he seems very competent to me and I know he is in the business for decades now.

I think I remember there is (or was) something like a "crafty barrier" when it comes to chess engine strength

There is little anyone can do with the fanatics in the Rybka Forum, but just for fun, ask them if there's a reason why crafty is more or less at the same strength level since years, but remember reasoning with them is a fool's errand.

[EN]

Jeroen Noomen, seriously, don't you have anything important to do besides playing the top strongest engine against Crafty? Exactly what are these matches suppose to prove? It certainly won't vindicate Rybka/Vasik Rajlick of Crafty/Fruit code plagiarism. You want to vent your silly, immature anger on someone? Vent it on the individual who stole codes from Fruit & Crafty, THEN claimed it his own. That would be your god - Vas Rajlick. Not only that; he made a [false] claim that IPPOLIT was Rybka 3, but when outputs & bugs were compared disproving his claim, he ran off. Just like he's doing with Crafty/Fruit vs. Rybka.

And after all the ruckus, here you are, a bitter Rybka fan boy, still arguing and venting your childish nuisance on the wrong man AND spamming foras with your nonsense.

Better yet, why not embark on writing YOUR very own chess engine; since Crafty apparently vexes you by not beating the strongest engine in the world? No code plagiarism & claiming it to be your own - as your master VR did, please!

Personally, I think the CCC moderators ought to ban these Rybka fan boys. There would be a lot more peace and important issues discussed.

[jdart]

Up till move 12 this game follows known theory. I think Crafty lost this not because it didn't play the gambit opening well, but because it got out-searched later on.

In Crafty's defense, too, there are still today many, many engines weaker than it is, and Crafty in 2015 is quite a bit stronger than it was even 5 years ago. I don't think it plays badly in general.

--Jon

Easiest way to beat Crafty is offering a gambit and taking it out of book quickly. Crafty's materialism and poor eval cannot cope with gambits very well and time and time again SF has a winning position in less than 20-25 moves.

Here is an example, tempo = game in 90 mins, hardware = core i7 @3.4 GHz:

[Event "Blitz:90'"]
[Site "Crafty testing"]
[Date "2015.04.12"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 030415 64"]
[Black "Crafty 24.1 64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[PlyCount "61"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O dxc3 8. Qb3 Qf6 9. Bg5 Qg6 10. Nxc3 Bxc3 11. Qxc3 Nf6 12. e5 Ne4 13. Qe3 Nxg5 14. Nxg5 Nd8 15. Rac1 h6 16. Ne4 O-O 17. Bd3 Qb6 18. Qxb6 cxb6 19. Nd6 Ne6 20. f4 Nd4 21. f5 Nc6 22. Rfe1 Nb4 23. Re3 b5 24. Bxb5 Nc6 25. Bc4 a5 26. a4 Nd8 27. Rg3 Kh7 28. f6 g6 29. Bd5 Ne6 30. Bxe6 dxe6 31. Rc7 1-0

[Graham Banks]

Jeroen Noomen, seriously, don't you have anything important to do besides playing the top strongest engine against Crafty? Exactly what are these matches suppose to prove? It certainly won't vindicate Rybka/Vasik Rajlick of Crafty/Fruit code plagiarism. You want to vent your silly, immature anger on someone? Vent it on the individual who stole codes from Fruit & Crafty, THEN claimed it his own. That would be your god - Vas Rajlick. Not only that; he made a [false] claim that IPPOLIT was Rybka 3, but when outputs & bugs were compared disproving his claim, he ran off. Just like he's doing with Crafty/Fruit vs. Rybka.

And after all the ruckus, here you are, a bitter Rybka fan boy, still arguing and venting your childish nuisance on the wrong man AND spamming foras with your nonsense.

Better yet, why not embark on writing YOUR very own chess engine; since Crafty apparently vexes you by not beating the strongest engine in the world? No code plagiarism & claiming it to be your own - as your master VR did, please!

Personally, I think the CCC moderators ought to ban these Rybka fan boys. There would be a lot more peace and important issues discussed.

Although I agree that the Stockfish v Crafty matches are both pointless and seemingly vindictive, posts such as yours don't belong in the Talkchess forum.
Read the charter. Hopefully the moderators will act.

[A Distel]

Jeroen Noomen, seriously, don't you have anything important to do besides playing the top strongest engine against Crafty? Exactly what are these matches suppose to prove? It certainly won't vindicate Rybka/Vasik Rajlick of Crafty/Fruit code plagiarism. You want to vent your silly, immature anger on someone? Vent it on the individual who stole codes from Fruit & Crafty, THEN claimed it his own. That would be your god - Vas Rajlick. Not only that; he made a [false] claim that IPPOLIT was Rybka 3, but when outputs & bugs were compared disproving his claim, he ran off. Just like he's doing with Crafty/Fruit vs. Rybka.

And after all the ruckus, here you are, a bitter Rybka fan boy, still arguing and venting your childish nuisance on the wrong man AND spamming foras with your nonsense.

Better yet, why not embark on writing YOUR very own chess engine; since Crafty apparently vexes you by not beating the strongest engine in the world? No code plagiarism & claiming it to be your own - as your master VR did, please!

Personally, I think the CCC moderators ought to ban these Rybka fan boys. There would be a lot more peace and important issues discussed.

Although I agree that the Stockfish v Crafty matches are both pointless and seemingly vindictive, posts such as yours don't belong in the Talkchess forum.
Read the charter. Hopefully the moderators will act.

Erfuk Neuni speaks the truth!