Nezhmetdinov - Chernikov - 1962 - Queen Sac

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Dear Lyudmill,
I have looked into the positions you have presented and my 'guess' is opposite to yours: black is better and white has to play very carefully for a draw

To start with your last position after a5 - e5 (btw a5 is suboptimal b6 is better move for black) Black plays Ra6 and in the best line I have found 17 c4 white can probably hold the draw but not easy

I am certain that you will disagree, but if you want I will provide you the lines.
They are cross examined with the three best engines in the world, playing on al level of approx 3300 ELO (ours are probably 1300 lower)

grts Bram

would be very happy, if you provide us with some lines, seemingly untenable.

b6 is certainly much wekaer than a5, I will have easier time refuting this line.

who is 3300 elo? Komodo? SF? H?
probably in the Netherlands, but in any case not from where I hail. here SF and Komodo are somewhere between 2200 & 2500, depending on good luck while picking the lines.

seriously, disable quescent search in engines, and any 2000 elo player will be able to beat the tops.
strong tactics does not necessarily mean good play, but just that erring humans make too many shallow mistakes.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

just to illustrate how strong white attack actually is apart from positional advantage, instead of c4, white migth play h4 Kg8 h5 gh (otherwise white creates 2 connected passers or open the h file) Rf1 h6 Rbe1:

[d]6k1/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/q5P1/4RRK1 b - - 0 4

and, playing down a pawn and a minor piece, try to avoid mate for black.

of course, this particular one migth still be holdable, but the point is that white can combine playing on positional advantages with playing on extremely strong king attack, to gain some tempos, by chasing the queen, rooks, or not allowing the creation of a black a passer, and the game is simply positionally won for white.

you need just one tempo here or there, one more threat or preventing one possible black threat like the creation of an a passer, and the black position should crumble. of course, it is not very easy for us, mere mortals, to find such moves, or either for our current weak top engines.

[beram]

just to illustrate how strong white attack actually is apart from positional advantage, instead of c4, white migth play h4 Kg8 h5 gh (otherwise white creates 2 connected passers or open the h file) Rf1 h6 Rbe1:

[d]6k1/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/q5P1/4RRK1 b - - 0 4

and, playing down a pawn and a minor piece, try to avoid mate for black.

of course, this particular one migth still be holdable, but the point is that white can combine playing on positional advantages with playing on extremely strong king attack, to gain some tempos, by chasing the queen, rooks, or not allowing the creation of a black a passer, and the game is simply positionally won for white.

you need just one tempo here or there, one more threat or preventing one possible black threat like the creation of an a passer, and the black position should crumble. of course, it is not very easy for us, mere mortals, to find such moves, or either for our current weak top engines.

Well you must play also best move for black
So after you suggested h4!? that is h6! and black is much better than with directly Kg8, because now after h5 gxh5 Rf1 Qc2! white has no other good option than to retreat its rook with Rec1 and still is on the verge of loosing

[d] 5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

just to illustrate how strong white attack actually is apart from positional advantage, instead of c4, white migth play h4 Kg8 h5 gh (otherwise white creates 2 connected passers or open the h file) Rf1 h6 Rbe1:

[d]6k1/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/q5P1/4RRK1 b - - 0 4

and, playing down a pawn and a minor piece, try to avoid mate for black.

of course, this particular one migth still be holdable, but the point is that white can combine playing on positional advantages with playing on extremely strong king attack, to gain some tempos, by chasing the queen, rooks, or not allowing the creation of a black a passer, and the game is simply positionally won for white.

you need just one tempo here or there, one more threat or preventing one possible black threat like the creation of an a passer, and the black position should crumble. of course, it is not very easy for us, mere mortals, to find such moves, or either for our current weak top engines.

Well you must play also best move for black
So after you suggested h4!? that is h6! and black is much better than with directly Kg8, because now after h5 gxh5 Rf1 Qc2! white has no other good option than to retreat its rook with Rec1 and still is on the verge of loosing

[d] 5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19

that is what engines say, but I see easily, that after Kh1 (to avoid some queen checks on dark squares with tempo), followed by Re1, or Nf5 b5 Rbd1, only white can win.

one way or another, we will hardly solve that now. I am certain we will check again in a couple of years.

[beram]

just to illustrate how strong white attack actually is apart from positional advantage, instead of c4, white migth play h4 Kg8 h5 gh (otherwise white creates 2 connected passers or open the h file) Rf1 h6 Rbe1:

[d]6k1/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/q5P1/4RRK1 b - - 0 4

and, playing down a pawn and a minor piece, try to avoid mate for black.

of course, this particular one migth still be holdable, but the point is that white can combine playing on positional advantages with playing on extremely strong king attack, to gain some tempos, by chasing the queen, rooks, or not allowing the creation of a black a passer, and the game is simply positionally won for white.

you need just one tempo here or there, one more threat or preventing one possible black threat like the creation of an a passer, and the black position should crumble. of course, it is not very easy for us, mere mortals, to find such moves, or either for our current weak top engines.

Well you must play also best move for black
So after you suggested h4!? that is h6! and black is much better than with directly Kg8, because now after h5 gxh5 Rf1 Qc2! white has no other good option than to retreat its rook with Rec1 and still is on the verge of loosing

[d] 5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19

that is what engines say, but I see easily, that after Kh1 (to avoid some queen checks on dark squares with tempo), followed by Re1, or Nf5 b5 Rbd1, only white can win.

one way or another, we will hardly solve that now. I am certain we will check again in a couple of years.

After your last given alternative Kh1?!? white is just lost after h4! Rfe1 h3! the fastest
and after h4! Rfc1 Qg6 Re1(or Rg1) a4! also rather fast with evals around 2,5 for black (see lines below)
I don't think you can arguably disagree on this final judgement
Lets rest the case

[d] 5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.12.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lyudmills illusion part13"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Mourik,Bram"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19"]
[PlyCount "16"]

19. Kh1 h4 $1 ({Komodo 10.1 64-bit:} 19... h4 20. Rfc1 Qg6 {[%eval -169,25]}) (
{Houdini 5 x64-pext:} 19... h4 20. Rfc1 Qg6 21. Rg1 Kg8 22. Rbf1 Kh7 23. Rf3
Ra8 24. g4 Qc2 25. Rh3 a4 26. bxa4 Qe2 27. Re3 Qa2 28. g5 Rg8 29. gxh6 Rxg1+
30. Kxg1 Qc2 31. Kh1 {[%eval -202,23]}) ({Stockfish 031216 64 BMI2:} 19... h4
20. Rfc1 {[%eval -228,26]}) 20. Rfc1 {best option} (20. Rfe1 h3) (20. Rbe1 Rxc3
21. Bxc3 h3) (20. Nf5 h3 $16 21. gxh3 Rxc3 22. Bxc3 Qxc3 23. Kg2 Qxe5) 20...
Qg6 21. Re1 (21. Rg1 a4 22. bxa4 Rxa4 23. Rbe1 Rc6 24. Rd1 Ra2 25. Rb1 Rxg2 26.
Rxb7 Rxg1+ 27. Bxg1 Kg8 28. Rxf7 Rxd6 29. Rg7+ Qxg7 30. fxg7 Rd3 31. Bc5 Kxg7
32. e6 Kf6 33. e7 Kf7 34. c4) 21... a4 22. bxa4 Rxa4 23. Rb2 Qg3 24. Rbe2 h3
25. Ne4 Qg4 26. gxh3 Qxh3+ *
[/pgn]

[Milos]

I really can't understand that you guys are arguing with a disillusion guy who is basically doing nothing but trolling, someone with frankly speaking mediocre 2100Elo OTB discussing 3400Elo monsters and claiming they know shit and only he "understands" all sorts of positions. He has made so many outrages claims in this forum and less than 5% of those came out correct. If one was just tossing a coin, one would have far greater success in predictions than him. Ridiculous...

In original position situation is so clear that it really makes no sense to discuss. Qxf6 is the move with which white losses all the advantage and only hope to save position is perpetual which is possible with perfect play.
There are at least 2 better moves (Qh6 and Qg4) that keep white's advantage in that position. So judging by actually value of move against perfect play it should get "?" notation, plain and simple.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I really can't understand that you guys are arguing with a disillusion guy who is basically doing nothing but trolling, someone with frankly speaking mediocre 2100Elo OTB discussing 3400Elo monsters and claiming they know shit and only he "understands" all sorts of positions. He has made so many outrages claims in this forum and less than 5% of those came out correct. If one was just tossing a coin, one would have far greater success in predictions than him. Ridiculous...

In original position situation is so clear that it really makes no sense to discuss. Qxf6 is the move with which white losses all the advantage and only hope to save position is perpetual which is possible with perfect play.
There are at least 2 better moves (Qh6 and Qg4) that keep white's advantage in that position. So judging by actually value of move against perfect play it should get "?" notation, plain and simple.

yeah, but I contributed a lot to SF, the best chess-playing entity so far, and you contributed NOTHING!

also, my eval assessments proved way better than anything anyone has discovered in the past, including TOP GMs.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

just to illustrate how strong white attack actually is apart from positional advantage, instead of c4, white migth play h4 Kg8 h5 gh (otherwise white creates 2 connected passers or open the h file) Rf1 h6 Rbe1:

[d]6k1/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/q5P1/4RRK1 b - - 0 4

and, playing down a pawn and a minor piece, try to avoid mate for black.

of course, this particular one migth still be holdable, but the point is that white can combine playing on positional advantages with playing on extremely strong king attack, to gain some tempos, by chasing the queen, rooks, or not allowing the creation of a black a passer, and the game is simply positionally won for white.

you need just one tempo here or there, one more threat or preventing one possible black threat like the creation of an a passer, and the black position should crumble. of course, it is not very easy for us, mere mortals, to find such moves, or either for our current weak top engines.

Well you must play also best move for black
So after you suggested h4!? that is h6! and black is much better than with directly Kg8, because now after h5 gxh5 Rf1 Qc2! white has no other good option than to retreat its rook with Rec1 and still is on the verge of loosing

[d] 5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19

that is what engines say, but I see easily, that after Kh1 (to avoid some queen checks on dark squares with tempo), followed by Re1, or Nf5 b5 Rbd1, only white can win.

one way or another, we will hardly solve that now. I am certain we will check again in a couple of years.

After your last given alternative Kh1?!? white is just lost after h4! Rfe1 h3! the fastest
and after h4! Rfc1 Qg6 Re1(or Rg1) a4! also rather fast with evals around 2,5 for black (see lines below)
I don't think you can arguably disagree on this final judgement
Lets rest the case

[d] 5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.12.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lyudmills illusion part13"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Mourik,Bram"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "5k2/1pr2p2/r2N1P1p/p3P2p/3B4/1PP5/2q3P1/1R3RK1 w - - 0 19"]
[PlyCount "16"]

19. Kh1 h4 $1 ({Komodo 10.1 64-bit:} 19... h4 20. Rfc1 Qg6 {[%eval -169,25]}) (
{Houdini 5 x64-pext:} 19... h4 20. Rfc1 Qg6 21. Rg1 Kg8 22. Rbf1 Kh7 23. Rf3
Ra8 24. g4 Qc2 25. Rh3 a4 26. bxa4 Qe2 27. Re3 Qa2 28. g5 Rg8 29. gxh6 Rxg1+
30. Kxg1 Qc2 31. Kh1 {[%eval -202,23]}) ({Stockfish 031216 64 BMI2:} 19... h4
20. Rfc1 {[%eval -228,26]}) 20. Rfc1 {best option} (20. Rfe1 h3) (20. Rbe1 Rxc3
21. Bxc3 h3) (20. Nf5 h3 $16 21. gxh3 Rxc3 22. Bxc3 Qxc3 23. Kg2 Qxe5) 20...
Qg6 21. Re1 (21. Rg1 a4 22. bxa4 Rxa4 23. Rbe1 Rc6 24. Rd1 Ra2 25. Rb1 Rxg2 26.
Rxb7 Rxg1+ 27. Bxg1 Kg8 28. Rxf7 Rxd6 29. Rg7+ Qxg7 30. fxg7 Rd3 31. Bc5 Kxg7
32. e6 Kf6 33. e7 Kf7 34. c4) 21... a4 22. bxa4 Rxa4 23. Rb2 Qg3 24. Rbe2 h3
25. Ne4 Qg4 26. gxh3 Qxh3+ *
[/pgn]

do not be pathetic, Bram.
all you make me is laugh.

I was just suggesting possible lines, to demonstrate how good actually the white position is, and not analysing, but you take nay possibility to make me vulnerable.

of course, if I wish, I can demonstrate beyond any doubt the sac is won for white, it will just take too many pages of analysis.

first: h4 is not the main line, but the one discussed with John
second: why did not you analyse Nf5 as well?
and third: of course, after Kh1, h4 migth be the best move, but white is till better, for example, after Rbc1 Qb3 Rf4

it is really funny how you believe engine scores, do you know what SH shows +200cps for:

[d]5k2/5p2/7p/2q5/p7/5R1R/6K1/8 b - - 0 21

this one, and you simply follow SF

of course, even this is dead draw, any good engine will evaluate RR vs Q p or even RR vs Qpp, with pawns isolated as better for the rook side, I am not to blame that SF prefers the queen, and you blindly believe it.

objectively, RR = Q+3/2 pawns at least, no matter what the pawns are, that is the rigth assessment, and it is not for me to change my view, but for SF and you to deliberate a bit on it.

[Milos]

of course, if I wish, I can demonstrate beyond any doubt the sac is won for white, it will just take too many pages of analysis.

You can't demonstrate even horse manure, coz you as usual have no clue what you are talking about. Not once you demonstrated anything of your ridiculous claims.
For god sake, you don't know even how to properly analyse with chess engine, beside clicking on analyse button of some outdated SF version you are probably running on who knows what hardware...
Beating a dead horse out of couple of eval terms that some poor idealist programmers worked their asses of until it finally passed fishtest and brought couple of Elo doesn't make you some chess oracle, gee.
You probably didn't even write a line of chess engine code in your life...

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

of course, if I wish, I can demonstrate beyond any doubt the sac is won for white, it will just take too many pages of analysis.

You can't demonstrate even horse manure, coz you as usual have no clue what you are talking about. Not once you demonstrated anything of your ridiculous claims.
For god sake, you don't know even how to properly analyse with chess engine, beside clicking on analyse button of some outdated SF version you are probably running on who knows what hardware...
Beating a dead horse out of couple of eval terms that some poor idealist programmers worked their asses of until it finally passed fishtest and brought couple of Elo doesn't make you some chess oracle, gee.
You probably didn't even write a line of chess engine code in your life...

but other eval terms do not pass at all...

sorry, but you also have to learn a lot, not only in this life, but in at least a couple of successive generations, until you get to my level of understanding.

in the meantime, I have nothing else to offer you, and you started this fully useless skirmish, not me, guess you will also have to put up with the consequences.

concerning code, first check your (supposed) translation from Italian of RobboLito code terms. man, you did not even translate properly the bishop name, some chiaro_dark, chiaro_whatever still stands there, also a lot of untranslated terms, partly English, partly Italian, not a very good presentation, I would say, so first look at what you have done, and then criticise others.

PS. again, you are spoling a reasonably good discussion so far; instead of contributing with specific output/suggestions, you simply level unwarranted claims and direct/and insulting words.