The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

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Frank Quisinsky
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The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

Hi there,

most of Crafty's many fans are a bit older.
Prof. Bob Hyatt wrote computer chess history but much more important are all the helps he give most of us many years.

Now, v25.3 is the last official Crafty, v25.6 JA a modernized Crafty, however it came about.
Strange things have always happened in the community, honestly ... we can produced much more stuff as the author from John Sinclair and we would be much more afraid.

According to the rumors I've heard, the official Crafty is supposed to be more powerful. Back in the day, hundreds of rumors were circulating every year, but unfortunately, that's becoming less common.

I am looking in both versions.
Seems to be right that Crafty 25.3 is a little bit stronger but we know ... Elo is misleading, and we're just rushing blindly into battle armed with nothing but Elo.

Let us look on an easy stat:

Code: Select all

                                          points   1:0 1/2   0:1     %   m-avg     1/0<45       rk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
090. Crafty 25.3 HCE xb                    183,0    60 246   994   14,08   74    0/ 63  - 63   00#
---. Crafty 25.6 HCE JA xb                 178,0    63 230  1007   13,69   78    0/ 20  - 20   ---
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Shredder 12 = ~ 2800 Elo
v25.3 = 2812
v25.6 JA = 2805

But is is really 2812 if Crafty lost from 1300 games 63 under 45 moves to mate?
Crafty has actually always had a glaring weakness in king safety. It's a goldmine for a Grandmaster with 2600 Elo if they like to play vs. Crafty. A lot of older very strong engines have such problems, like Rybka or Shredder. Not Zappa, Hiarcs, Junior and so one.

But now ...
v25.6 JA (a little big weaker) comes with only 20 games lost under 45 moves to mate.
63 to 20 ... what for a difference!!

Such things you will never see in the official ratinglist system, if you looking on Elo only.

So, the clear better version is v25.6 JA and not v25.3.
Peoples that modernized Crafty do a great job!

Best
Frank
Peter Berger
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Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by Peter Berger »

I have no idea how you come up with "rumours" when you can just look at the READMEs in the Crafty source.

Crafty 25.6 was an official release by Bob Hyatt alright. It was supposed to fix the issues with resigning and draw offers ( it btw doesn't really, but that would be another topic. ;) )

What modern users maybe can't really understand easily: there was a significant variance in strength between Crafty versions ELO-wise, in both directions. Sometimes Crafty was pretty strong and improving, and sometimes the ELO went down. Testing and release policy of modern engines is just something else. I don't think anyone really knows what the strongest Crafty version is ELO-wise. We DO know which one is the last one. :D
peter
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Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by peter »

BTW, Peter, do you know the command for using more then 1 thread in JA- compiles of 25.6? Didn't find it in console- help (only "smp" but that just sets core- affinity, as it seems), adding threads=x in crafty.eng- file of UCI versions didn't help neither, regards
Peter.
peter
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Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by peter »

Edit- time over.
Guess I found out on my own in meantime, that console- command seems to be "smpmt n". "Help smp" in non- uci- binary this time yet gave much more information
:idea:
Peter.
Frank Quisinsky
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Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

Crafty 25.6
https://open-chess.org/viewtopic.php?t=3229

Later the JA compiles are available.

WIKI to Crafty:
https://www.chessprogramming.org/Crafty

v25.3
https://github.com/MichaelB7/Crafty/releases

Hi Peter Berger,

thanks for your good message to Crafty!

I tested a lot of Crafty versions all the years. Offer a Crafty collection in the past (around the year 2000, later available on Leo Dijksman site), an opening book for Crafty and so on. Yes, there were fluctuations in Crafty’s playing strength, but also in its playing style, which, in my opinion, wasn’t always consistent either.

What I actually wanted to say is that this is precisely the focus of these two versions. The last version Bob Hyatt himself had released was Crafty 25.3. With version 25.1, I had pointed out a few bugs that caused timing issues with the wb2uci adapter. Bob had worked hard to fix this bug, and version 25.2 then ran without any timeouts. Can be search in TalkChess, but not very important today ... around the year 2016 or 2017.

Why did I write “rumors”? I gathered from individual posts that version 25.3 has a higher playing strength than 25.6. JA, That’s why I decided to look at both versions now. To be honest, I only followed the many engine developments partially. Surely there are few who really have the time to always take in all the information completely. It’s very likely that I’m missing some information, for example. It's possible that Bob himself updated the readme for version 25.6; I don't know.

Best
Frank
chesskobra
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Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by chesskobra »

Could someone please post a link to crafty-25.6-JA. I had compiled 25.6 with a minor change to the makefile (to activate Elo setting - I believe this was introduced in 25.6), but I would like to get 25.6-JA.

Crafy was my 3rd chess program - the first two were gnuchess and xboard (the GOAT - my all time favourite chess program).
Peter Berger
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Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by Peter Berger »

peter wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2026 3:03 pm Edit- time over.
Guess I found out on my own in meantime, that console- command seems to be "smpmt n". "Help smp" in non- uci- binary this time yet gave much more information
:idea:
Actually I wouldn't even really know ;) . I remember that I tested Crafty in 2004 in various GUIs for potential use in the Blitz event. I was unhappy with WinBoard that worked in a very reliable way in principle, but it was a little too sluggish for my purposes. Also there were issues with some of the internal crafty commands in that it was complicated to work out for me which exact setting ( GUI or internal one) would actually be used. Other GUIs like ChessBase were even way more complicated to evaluate, and there were additional issues with them. I was sceptical whether this could be worked out with Bob and be worth the time. Since then I have only used Crafty with its own UI.

Same as you I've just used the help function now, and your smptmt=x works. Personally I have always used mt=x and still do.
Frank Quisinsky
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Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

Crafty 25.6 JA compiles!

I know a site you can find the link ...
https://www.amateurschach.de/main/_engines.htm

Can be sorted in alphabetic order:
https://www.amateurschach.de/main/_engines-a.htm

Now to Crafty, and click on the link to JA compiles and you have it.
Same for all the others, very fast, very easy ...

The person who made this must invested a lot of time ...
Thanks from my site for this work!
Frank Quisinsky
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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 pm
Location: Gutweiler, Germany
Full name: Frank Quisinsky

Re: The rumors surrounding Crafty, 25.3 or 25.6 JA is the question here!

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

I produced a double message, sorry!