draw against the rules in the WCCC

[Uri Blass]

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... #pid156834

I think that it could be better if the organizers could tell the player that they do not accept the draw and the players need to continue.

The game is between computers and not between humans and the joker operator has no right to offer a draw for Joker.

Uri

[swami]

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... #pid156834

I think that it could be better if the organizers could tell the player that they do not accept the draw and the players need to continue.

The game is between computers and not between humans and the joker operator has no right to offer a draw for Joker.

Uri

If the engine claimed a draw, the operator can give the info that the engine offers draw.

However, the Operator cannot act on his whim to offer a draw even when the engine gives equal score without claiming a draw.

[bob]

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... #pid156834

I think that it could be better if the organizers could tell the player that they do not accept the draw and the players need to continue.

The game is between computers and not between humans and the joker operator has no right to offer a draw for Joker.

Uri

In general, decisions made at these events are a joke. In the past, if a program claimed a draw, and the FIDE rules for a draw were satisfied, the game ended on the spot with no discussion. If a program offers a draw, and the opponent (program) accepts, the game ends. Draw offers between operators always needed the permission of the TD, and that decision was NEVER based on the concept of fairness or gentlemaness. It was based on the rules and the TD would generally demand that a draw be played out until it was obvious on the board that the position was a real draw. Then, unfortunately, IM Mike Valvo passed away and the TD responsibilities were taken over by someone that simply does not understand the intent of these tournaments. And we see these kinds of things happening regularly. The problem is that a draw vs a loss will affect later pairings, and even the final standings in the tournament. Several years ago Shredder won when it should not have, because a bogus draw offer was allowed in another game (non shredder game) that changed the final results and caused a tie at the end of regulation play which would not have happened had the true result of the "draw" been recorded.

Nice to not have to deal with this nonsense in the CCT events.

[bob]

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... #pid156834

I think that it could be better if the organizers could tell the player that they do not accept the draw and the players need to continue.

The game is between computers and not between humans and the joker operator has no right to offer a draw for Joker.

Uri

If the engine claimed a draw, the operator can give the info that the engine offers draw.

However, the Operator cannot act on his whim to offer a draw even when the engine gives equal score without claiming a draw.

Oh yes he can. And it has happened in the past. Regardless of what the rules say...

[Mike S.]

This is the link to the ICGA rules for the 17th WCCC:WCCC:

http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/e ... .php?id=28 (PDF)

It doesn't seem to contain any restrictions or extra regulations about draw agreements. At least I found none.

[bob]

This is the link to the ICGA rules for the 17th WCCC:WCCC:

http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/e ... .php?id=28 (PDF)

It doesn't seem to contain any restrictions or extra regulations about draw agreements. At least I found none.

In the past, this has always been formalized in the player's meeting prior to the first round. The only issue is "operator offered/accepted draws" which is implicitly in the rules since the operator can only relay moves and information about the chess clock. If the program offers, or can accept draws, the current rules cover that since a draw offer is part of a move to be relayed.

operator offered/accepted draws have always required TD approval.

[bob]

The problem is that a draw vs a loss will affect later pairings, and even the final standings in the tournament.

Luckily enough, not in this case. This is a round-robin tournament.

When they do a full RR, it doesn't matter. But the idea is bad in general, humans should have no influence on a game's result.

[hgm]

Nice to not have to deal with this nonsense in the CCT events.

Can't operators offer each other a draw on ICC then?

[mclane]

i remember in 1993 in munich many funny situations happened because the tournament director who was in charge for the adjudications ONE day adjudicated concerning the chess rules (from a chess point of view this endgame is a draw) and the next day he adjudicated if the programs are technically capable to win this endgame position or not.

that was very "funny" for ONE programmer who was involded in 2 cases and said to the tournament director in an upset tone:

Yesterday you decided against me telling me from a chess point of view the position is so and so, and today you decide against me telling me, not the chess position is of importance but the question is if my program is capable to win the winning position.

i saw the tournament director shouting into the participants direction.
it was maybe 2h in the night. everybody was very tired.

i think this was the same tournament director who threatened in another situation to attack a programmer (physical attack!) if he is not accepting the decisions.

those championships are really always funny.

[Steve B]

i saw the tournament director shouting into the participants direction.
it was maybe 2h in the night. everybody was very tired.

i think this was the same tournament director who threatened in another situation to attack a programmer (physical attack!) if he is not accepting the decisions.

those championships are really always funny.

interesting recollection Thor
this TD sounds like he would make a great CTF member


Steve