How do you detect a useless outpost ?

[Henk]

Sometimes you see games where knight is on fifth rank but doing nothing there. Actually totally on wrong place. But is an outpost so it gets a bonus.

[Sven]

Sometimes you see games where knight is on fifth rank but doing nothing there. Actually totally on wrong place. But is an outpost so it gets a bonus.

Concrete example diagram?

[Henk]

Sometimes you see games where knight is on fifth rank but doing nothing there. Actually totally on wrong place. But is an outpost so it gets a bonus.

Concrete example diagram?

No just use your imagination. Actually same question for space and mobility.

Maybe only give a bonus if knight is outpost in center or near opponent king. But even then if king is safe and all accessible squares there are good defended and everything is happening on other wing.

[Henk]

So looks like only an outpost in center is worth a bonus.

[Daniel Anulliero]

Tried outpost bonus in Isa 2 months ago , I lose 50 elo with it , then removed it ...
But it's sure if you have a white knight on e6 and the black king is on h1 then the out post bonus is so useless
(Joking)

[cdani]

Sometimes you see games where knight is on fifth rank but doing nothing there. Actually totally on wrong place. But is an outpost so it gets a bonus.

I thought about this various times. I didn't found a way to win elo. But for example the typical 2 bishops bonus can be countered in part with some bonus for closed center against them, specially if there is a good knigth.

[Henk]

Perhaps an open file nearby is needed.

One knight can't do much. Maybe only chasing rooks and queens away to other location. But if they have even better locations that won't help.

Maybe a fork.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Sometimes you see games where knight is on fifth rank but doing nothing there. Actually totally on wrong place. But is an outpost so it gets a bonus.

very simple: if file of(outpost) == a||b ||g ||h && side of(outpost)!=side of(enemy king location) && all squares attacked by the outpost on more advanced ranks than the outpost itself are also attacked by at least 1 enemy piece && not attacked by any own piece -> give some useless outpost penalty.

but this is not the problem with outposts, the real problem is that there are at least 5 or 6 useful outpost features that engines usually do not consider.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r2q1rk1/3nppbp/1p1p2p1/pPpP4/PnP1PP2/R4N1P/6P1/1BBQ1RK1 b - - 0 1

here is your useless outpost, white wins even if black makes 4 non-capturing moves in a row.

[Henk]

Sometimes you see games where knight is on fifth rank but doing nothing there. Actually totally on wrong place. But is an outpost so it gets a bonus.

very simple: if file of(outpost) == a||b ||g ||h && side of(outpost)!=side of(enemy king location) && all squares attacked by the outpost on more advanced ranks than the outpost itself are also attacked by at least 1 enemy piece && not attacked by any own piece -> give some useless outpost penalty.

but this is not the problem with outposts, the real problem is that there are at least 5 or 6 useful outpost features that engines usually do not consider.

No penalty needed if important square is defended by a knight. Because defending knight must stay there too. Defending slider is best if it also attacks important squares or can switch easily to other wing when needed.