A PC equals to Apple MacBook Pro with chip M4 pro?

[phhnguyen]

My iMac has become too old and I am going to upgrade to a new computer. I am considering buying an Apple MacBook Pro 14-inch, chip M4 pro (14-core CPU, 20-core GPU, 16-core Neural Engine), 48 GB RAM, and 2 TB SSD. The price is AUD$ 5200 = USD$ 3278. Chess is one of the main purposes. I need both a strong CPU (for chess computing, say, for generating NNUE data and some EGTBs) and a good GPU (for creating NNUE as well as training some AI models).

The price of that MacBook Pro is too expensive. I don’t mind buying a PC instead if there is a good bargain/replacement. Since there are many PC fans here, it would be good if you could advise me to buy a PC with a similar strength (CPU and GPU). (I guess it should be ones using an AMD Ryzen/Threadripper + NVIDIA RTX from 4xxx).

I may buy a PC if the price is about 50% - under USD 1700. IMO, it is not worth it if the price is higher than that level since buying a PC I must sacrifice already some things, say, changing from a well-known maker (Apple) to an unknown maker, losing almost half of the computer lifespan (before buying a new one), macOS to Windows (I don’t like the unstableness and malware of Windows), missing the screen, laptop (highly mobility) to a PC and so on.

Thanks for the advice. Feel free to correct me, to comment on PC vs Apple (to enjoy, to create a new war and/or to pursue ).

Enjoy the weekend!

[Hai]

My iMac has become too old and I am going to upgrade to a new computer. I am considering buying an Apple MacBook Pro 14-inch, chip M4 pro (14-core CPU, 20-core GPU, 16-core Neural Engine), 48 GB RAM, and 2 TB SSD. The price is AUD$ 5200 = USD$ 3278. Chess is one of the main purposes. I need both a strong CPU (for chess computing, say, for generating NNUE data and some EGTBs) and a good GPU (for creating NNUE as well as training some AI models).

The price of that MacBook Pro is too expensive. I don’t mind buying a PC instead if there is a good bargain/replacement. Since there are many PC fans here, it would be good if you could advise me to buy a PC with a similar strength (CPU and GPU). (I guess it should be ones using an AMD Ryzen/Threadripper + NVIDIA RTX from 4xxx).

I may buy a PC if the price is about 50% - under USD 1700. IMO, it is not worth it if the price is higher than that level since buying a PC I must sacrifice already some things, say, changing from a well-known maker (Apple) to an unknown maker, losing almost half of the computer lifespan (before buying a new one), macOS to Windows (I don’t like the unstableness and malware of Windows), missing the screen, laptop (highly mobility) to a PC and so on.

Thanks for the advice. Feel free to correct me, to comment on PC vs Apple (to enjoy, to create a new war and/or to pursue ).

Enjoy the weekend!

It doesn't make any sense to switch from Apple to a PC only.
You can buy a new iMac or Mac Mini or Mac Studio or MacBook...
Under 1700 USD sounds like the price for only one RTX GPU.

[smatovic]

...it would be good if you could advise me to buy a PC with a similar strength (CPU and GPU). (I guess it should be ones using an AMD Ryzen/Threadripper + NVIDIA RTX from 4xxx).
....

The question is which AMD Zen, if Zen 3, Zen 4 or Zen 5, the Ryzen (5000, 7000, 9000 series) or Threadripper(Pro) or Epyc, and how much GPU compute and memory you need.

AMD Ryzen series scales currently up to 16 cores, if you need more then the pricier Threadripper(Pro) and Epyc step in. Ryzen Zen 3 has DDR4 and AVX2, Ryzen Zen 4 has DDR4 and AVX-512 via 2x256b, Ryzen Zen 5 has new AM5 socket with DDR5 and AVX-512 with 512b data path. ThreadripperPro and Epyc have more memory channels and PCIe lanes. Given your budget, I guess a Ryzen 7000 series is the choice.

Take a look at Ipman Chess Benchmarks (SF 14.1):
https://ipmanchess.yolasite.com/amd--in ... ckfish.php

Take a look at Zen 3,4,5 benchmark with SF 16.1
viewtopic.php?p=967471#p967471

As for the GPU, open end. I think the RTX 2080 TI is still a good shot in regard of FP16 performance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... _20_series

Still beefier (TFLOPS) than M-series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_sil ... processors

And you can still consider to install a Linux on your box, Ubuntu is quite decent in regard of GPGPU and machine learning, you can run Windows executables via Wine, if not, Windows has WSL, windows subsystem for Linux.

--
Srdja

[smatovic]

...
As for the GPU, open end. I think the RTX 2080 TI is still a good shot in regard of FP16 performance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... _20_series

Still beefier (TFLOPS) than M-series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_sil ... processors
...

Code: Select all

Model           vector TFLOPS FP32       matrix
RTX 2080 Ti     13.44                    107.58 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Pro    8.52                     38 TOPS INT8 via NPU

--
Srdja

[Werewolf]

...
As for the GPU, open end. I think the RTX 2080 TI is still a good shot in regard of FP16 performance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... _20_series

Still beefier (TFLOPS) than M-series:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_sil ... processors
...

Code: Select all

Model           vector TFLOPS FP32       matrix
RTX 2080 Ti     13.44                    107.58 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Pro    8.52                     38 TOPS INT8 via NPU

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Srdja

Now do the 5090

[smatovic]

Code: Select all

Model*          vector TFLOPS FP32       matrix
RTX 5090        104.8                    419 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Max    17.04                    38 TOPS INT8 via NPU
RTX 4060        15.1                     60 TFLOPS FP16
RTX 2080 Ti     13.44                    107.58 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Pro    8.52                     38 TOPS INT8 via NPU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... _50_series
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... _40_series
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_sil ... processors
*top version and max boost

So the entry level Nvidia RTX 4060 for >= 350 USD tops already the Apple M4 Pro GPU and NPU.

Nvidia RTX 4060 starts with ~350 USD:
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=Nvidia+RTX+4060

AMD Ryzen 7950X (16 cores Zen 4) starts with ~500 USD:
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=AMD+Ryzen+7950X

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Srdja

[towforce]

Code: Select all

Model*          vector TFLOPS FP32       matrix
RTX 5090        104.8                    419 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Max    17.04                    38 TOPS INT8 via NPU
RTX 4060        15.1                     60 TFLOPS FP16
RTX 2080 Ti     13.44                    107.58 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Pro    8.52                     38 TOPS INT8 via NPU

Nice - but you're not going to get a 5090 for 50% less than $1700 (the OP's target) - or even for $1700 for that matter.

[smatovic]

...
Nice - but you're not going to get a 5090 for 50% less than $1700 (the OP's target) - or even for $1700 for that matter.

...
So the entry level Nvidia RTX 4060 for >= 350 USD tops already the Apple M4 Pro GPU and NPU.

Nvidia RTX 4060 starts with ~350 USD:
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=Nvidia+RTX+4060
...

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Srdja

[smatovic]

Side note, be aware that Apple M-series is a unified memory architecture, CPU+GPU+NPU can all access main memory, RAM. Contrary the PC is divided into RAM for CPU and VRAM for GPU, communicating via PCIe. The memory throughput of M-series is quite impressive for a CPU, but not that much if compared to discrete GPUs' VRAM.

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Srdja

[Werewolf]

Code: Select all

Model*          vector TFLOPS FP32       matrix
RTX 5090        104.8                    419 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Max    17.04                    38 TOPS INT8 via NPU
RTX 4060        15.1                     60 TFLOPS FP16
RTX 2080 Ti     13.44                    107.58 TFLOPS FP16
Apple M4 Pro    8.52                     38 TOPS INT8 via NPU

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Srdja

Slaughter.