Can anyone test this

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Charles B.

Re: Can anyone test this

Post by Charles B. »

Windows Me.

Like someone mentioned earlier, if you have Windows 98 and other primary Windows versions on the way to being the way they ought to function; I wouldn't concern myself with getting it right in Windows Me too much.


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hgm wrote:Strange that it cannot be used to edit pre-existing polyglot.ini files, though.
The person that asked Alex Guerrero if he would be willing to release the GUI as a separate utility was only looking for an ini maker - nothing more. The person that asked him was me, btw (and I was a stranger approaching this man). I'm sure Alex could have made the utility to where it could open previously saved ini files but why should he? If people want that capability they can use WinMan. I would have just used WinMan too, and not bothered Alex in the first place except I only have a few engines installed at any one time and I really do not have need of an engine manager. If I had more engines installed I would use WinMan or some other manager.

Also the way the Polyglot_GUI utility is set up now, it does not force people to keep their ini files in a particular location so that the utility can find them again later. It makes the initial ini file and the person using the utility moves the file to where they want it - freedom of use.
hgm wrote:PolyglotGUI cannot be legally distributed together with WinBoard. So for our purpose it might as well not exist at all...
Yes, all of this is irrelevant to Winboard anyway.
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hgm
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by hgm »

F.Huber wrote:Ok, first the good news: the options window looks much better now (ie. as it should). :)
OK, that certainly is good news!
But there are still a few problems/questions:
1) the options of type 'spin' are simple text fields (eg. HashSize or SearchDepth in ChestUCI), so you have to enter any values manually and can't choose them by up/down-arrows.
I glanced through the MS control styles, but I could not find such a style. Of course I could put together the required controls myself. This would lead to a quite excessive number of controls, though, as each spin would then require four: the text-edit, two push-buttons, and a text to print next to it. Win95 seems to be limited to only 256 controls per dialog, max.

I doubted a bit the usefulness of such increment/decrement buttons anyway: for the engines I looked at most of the default values where in the hundreds, so incrementing in steps of 1 would not really get anywhere... So for a first try I thought we could do without. The lack of a browse button for file names seemed much more annoying.
2) as you already mentioned the 'combo' types don't popup the list, but you can select the entries with the down/up-arrow keys (BTW, the width of these combo boxes is too small, try eg. scrolling through the 'SearchMode' list in ChestUCI)
This definitely still has to be fixed, but as it also occurs in Win2k at least I can test it myself. Perhap this is also as simple as adding another style specifyer that determines how overlapping controls cover each other.

(Although space is in general a problem, when the list opens it can also use the space of the button to open it, and the problem is not that bad.)
3) and finally I don't really understand (and like) your strange ordering system of these options!
IMO it would be better to fill one complete column (20 or 25 entries) of options, and only for more options start with the next (2nd) column.
As it is now, it's quite confusing: one left, one right, the next again left, then right ... :(
What you say would not work, because some of the options require a much larger width than others, and extend over two columns. The system is based on the observation that check or combo options to enable a spin or string in general are sent by the engine directly before it, and the desire to have this check/combo then appear left of the spin, or left above the text-edit (as it won't fit on the same line).

If several options share a common initial word they are put in a group box. If not, it i assumed they are independent optons, and for spins they are displayed at two per line (right to left), while for checks they are stacked over two columns (right column first).

The layout as it is produced for ChestUCI does not look particularly illogical to me. There do not seem to be any options that belong together and now appear far apart. A number of "Show" options is close together, as is a number of "Auto" options. I notice you use a non-compliant option for hash size, so that it appears in the specific Engine Settings dialog, rather than reacting to the global GUI setting for hash size.

I am less happy about the result for Glaurung 2.2, but this is not so much because of the ordering, but mainly because the options use unreasonably long names which do not fit the alotted space (which is already quite large when the option name is short). This mainly occurs because Glaurung puts qualifiers in parentheses behind the options (e.g. "(non-PV nodes)"). Perhaps I should also group options based on such stuff in parentheses. But for Glaurung this would not work because it alternates the PV and non-PV versions, rather than grouping them. But this is just illogical option ordering on the part of Glaurung, so it is questionable if I should even attempt to fix it.
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by F.Huber »

hgm wrote: I glanced through the MS control styles, but I could not find such a style.
Well, I'm programming in Borland Delphi and here this type is called 'TSpinEdit'. Maybe you find something similar in your IDE ...
The lack of a browse button for file names seemed much more annoying.
Yes, but as it is currently this browse button is also used for options, where it makes no sense at all (e.g. 'ExpertOptions' in ChestUCI).
IMO it should definitely NOT be used for simple 'string' type options, for something like your planned 'file' or 'path' options (in UCI3 protocol) it would be ok.
If several options share a common initial word they are put in a group box. If not, it i assumed they are independent optons, and for spins they are displayed at two per line (right to left), while for checks they are stacked over two columns (right column first).
Well, this rearranging (i.e. putting together) different options wrt. any common initial words is not really a good idea IMO. I'm sure every engine programmer is in fact thinking about the best (i.e. logical and straightforward to use) order of his options. So your method would either destroy his preferred options arrangement, or you force him to name his options in a way that you are using to sort them.

I really prefer the way Arena 1.1 handles these UCI options - maybe you should have a look at it ... :wink:
I notice you use a non-compliant option for hash size, so that it appears in the specific Engine Settings dialog, rather than reacting to the global GUI setting for hash size.
Yes, this was intended because ChestUCI is not a normal chess engine, and so I prefer having its options separated from other chess engines ...
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by hgm »

F.Huber wrote:Maybe you find something similar in your IDE ...
I checked, but Notepad doesn't seem to know it... :lol:
The lack of a browse button for file names seemed much more annoying.
Yes, but as it is currently this browse button is also used for options, where it makes no sense at all (e.g. 'ExpertOptions' in ChestUCI).
IMO it should definitely NOT be used for simple 'string' type options, for something like your planned 'file' or 'path' options (in UCI3 protocol) it would be ok.
Sure, I will add those option types to WB protocol too. But as long as Polyglot does not implement UCI3 and does not use the same kludge as Arena to guess if a string option of UCI2 should be classified as string, file or path option and transmit it accordingly to WinBoard, it seems prudent to make the browse button appear next to any text edit. In the worst case it makes no sense. Simply not pushing it would be an acceptable work-around in this case.. The alternative approach would make it never appear, and there would be no work-around that allows them to browse... The code that does it correctly is already there; it is just a matter of moving the case labels around.
Well, this rearranging (i.e. putting together) different options wrt. any common initial words is not really a good idea IMO. I'm sure every engine programmer is in fact thinking about the best (i.e. logical and straightforward to use) order of his options. So your method would either destroy his preferred options arrangement, or you force him to name his options in a way that you are using to sort them.
I don't really rearrange options to make groups. Only if the options are already consecutive they can be grouped. So I don't think there is much danger of destroying any arrangement.

The display is a two-dimensional entity. It cannot be fully controlled by the author of the engine, which has to transmit his options in a 1-dimensional sequence. So it is necessary that the GUI adds information to map the options in 2D. I consider it an advantage that an author who feels strongly about the layout of the option dialog, and is not atisfied with the default way it is handled, can exrt some additional control over the placement by playing with the name.
I really prefer the way Arena 1.1 handles these UCI options - maybe you should have a look at it ... :wink:
Well, I'll think I'll pass on that one. It would be more interesting if someone could find a case where the current WinBoard algorithm really messes up, and post that here, explaining what is wrong with it. Perhaps in comparison with the solution from another GUI.
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by F. Bluemers »

hgm wrote:
F.Huber wrote:Maybe you find something similar in your IDE ...
I checked, but Notepad doesn't seem to know it... :lol:
The lack of a browse button for file names seemed much more annoying.
Yes, but as it is currently this browse button is also used for options, where it makes no sense at all (e.g. 'ExpertOptions' in ChestUCI).
IMO it should definitely NOT be used for simple 'string' type options, for something like your planned 'file' or 'path' options (in UCI3 protocol) it would be ok.
Sure, I will add those option types to WB protocol too. But as long as Polyglot does not implement UCI3 and does not use the same kludge as Arena to guess if a string option of UCI2 should be classified as string, file or path option and transmit it accordingly to WinBoard, it seems prudent to make the browse button appear next to any text edit. In the worst case it makes no sense. Simply not pushing it would be an acceptable work-around in this case.. The alternative approach would make it never appear, and there would be no work-around that allows them to browse... The code that does it correctly is already there; it is just a matter of moving the case labels around.
Well, this rearranging (i.e. putting together) different options wrt. any common initial words is not really a good idea IMO. I'm sure every engine programmer is in fact thinking about the best (i.e. logical and straightforward to use) order of his options. So your method would either destroy his preferred options arrangement, or you force him to name his options in a way that you are using to sort them.
I don't really rearrange options to make groups. Only if the options are already consecutive they can be grouped. So I don't think there is much danger of destroying any arrangement.

The display is a two-dimensional entity. It cannot be fully controlled by the author of the engine, which has to transmit his options in a 1-dimensional sequence. So it is necessary that the GUI adds information to map the options in 2D. I consider it an advantage that an author who feels strongly about the layout of the option dialog, and is not atisfied with the default way it is handled, can exrt some additional control over the placement by playing with the name.
I really prefer the way Arena 1.1 handles these UCI options - maybe you should have a look at it ... :wink:
Well, I'll think I'll pass on that one. It would be more interesting if someone could find a case where the current WinBoard algorithm really messes up, and post that here, explaining what is wrong with it. Perhaps in comparison with the solution from another GUI.
where and what is this UCI3?
I asked SMK some time ago about the extensions that were created for rybka ,but he didn't know anything about it.
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by hgm »

UCI3 seems to be the Rybka extensions. I don't know anything about this either, but when working on the option dialog I did realize the necessity of distinguishing string, file and path (folder) options, as they require other controls / GUI response to conveniently set them, and thus decided to add them to WinBoard protocol. It seems that the Rybka team got the same idea before me, with respect to UCI.

The slider seems not really necessary, as a spin would do the same job, but it looks fancy, so I might as well allow it in WB protocol (and implement it as spin in the GUI for as long as I am lazy).
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by F. Bluemers »

ah yes,got it http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 60&t=29104
Time for me to quickly extend polyglot: if an engine replies cbr3ok/uci3ok after seeing cbr3/uci3 lets crash it,after all its only fair if we keep their secrets secret :lol: :wink:
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by hgm »

Charles B. wrote:Windows Me.

Like someone mentioned earlier, if you have Windows 98 and other primary Windows versions on the way to being the way they ought to function; I wouldn't concern myself with getting it right in Windows Me too much.


Image
Well, this seems OK now too: the buttons now appear, unlike previously. You don't seem to have any other options, though, which must be due to the use of a wrong Polyglot (which does not transmit them).

The Second Engine Settings currently only are filled after you have actually used that second engine in Two-Machines mode. Before that, the second engine is not loaded in WinBoard (to not force you to have a valid second engine name if you want to use only a single engine).
Charles B.

Re: Can anyone test this

Post by Charles B. »

hgm wrote: Well, this seems OK now too: the buttons now appear, unlike previously. You don't seem to have any other options, though, which must be due to the use of a wrong Polyglot (which does not transmit them).
Ok, that was it. I rotate on the Polyglot use sometime and I was using F. Bluemers' Polyglot at that time. I didn't even think about having the wrong one in use.

Pretty awesome but maybe it is known that the dialog box goes off of the screen (horizontally). 800x600 screen resolution used here. If it has been mentioned above I haven't read the past few post too closely yet.
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Re: Can anyone test this

Post by F.Huber »

Charles B. wrote: Pretty awesome but maybe it is known that the dialog box goes off of the screen (horizontally). 800x600 screen resolution used here.
Yes, same here (with ChestUCI), but at least horizontally is still better than vertically, because so you can move the whole window with the title bar.
But of course a horizontal scrollbar would be better ... :)