The short story of a long castling

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

Robert Flesher
Posts: 1285
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by Robert Flesher »

kbhearn wrote:Well you asked why the engine wouldn't go kingside, and looking at engine lines quite simply why they'd avoid it as a sample line would be something along the lines of :

15 ... o-o 16. o-o Be6 17. Nd2 Qd7 18. Rae1 where black will never be able to play f5, white has more space, more activity, and all the chances. f4+g4 seems to be quite playable in most lines simply because black has no activity, opening lines on the kingside means his king is opened up too and white is better placed to take advantage of it. Is it more likely to survive than with the king on the queenside? maybe... But it is an entirely different game to analyse and may not be sufficient.

Regarding your line: 16 ... Qd7?! 17. Nh4 g5? leads to difficulties after 18. Nxf5 Qxf5 19. f4 gxf4 20. Rae1 at which point in multipv several attempts to flail around are presented with evals ranging from +1.3 to +1.5. Essentially black desperately tries to activate, successfully manages that, but then white infiltrates the queenside and it all starts to slowly fall apart as b6 and c6 are weak and impossible to protect while maintaining enough activity to suppress white's kingside attack...

As to a proposal for an alternate mistake to blame, i'm not sure i'd be able to posit one. Just that your suggestion of o-o instead is hardly a cure leading to a simple draw - just a different inferior position that may or may not be holdable.

+1
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

kbhearn wrote:Well you asked why the engine wouldn't go kingside, and looking at engine lines quite simply why they'd avoid it as a sample line would be something along the lines of :

15 ... o-o 16. o-o Be6 17. Nd2 Qd7 18. Rae1 where black will never be able to play f5, white has more space, more activity, and all the chances. f4+g4 seems to be quite playable in most lines simply because black has no activity, opening lines on the kingside means his king is opened up too and white is better placed to take advantage of it. Is it more likely to survive than with the king on the queenside? maybe... But it is an entirely different game to analyse and may not be sufficient.

Regarding your line: 16 ... Qd7?! 17. Nh4 g5? leads to difficulties after 18. Nxf5 Qxf5 19. f4 gxf4 20. Rae1 at which point in multipv several attempts to flail around are presented with evals ranging from +1.3 to +1.5. Essentially black desperately tries to activate, successfully manages that, but then white infiltrates the queenside and it all starts to slowly fall apart as b6 and c6 are weak and impossible to protect while maintaining enough activity to suppress white's kingside attack...

As to a proposal for an alternate mistake to blame, i'm not sure i'd be able to posit one. Just that your suggestion of o-o instead is hardly a cure leading to a simple draw - just a different inferior position that may or may not be holdable.
Black easily plays f5 after Nh4.

For example: Nh4 Be6 f4 Kh7 g4 f5

[d]r4r2/3qp1bk/1pp1b1pp/p1p1Pp2/P4PPN/1P1P3P/1BP1Q3/R4RK1 w - f6 0 6

As you see, black has just played f5, with perfect equality.

White should capture now gf5 gf5.
Later black will include Rg8, Qe8, Bh8, Rd8.

Engines still show here some +80/90cps for white, but that is perfectly equal.
You should not look too much at engine evals, engines quite often go astray due to considering mobility where it should not be considered, or not considering other factors where they should be considered.

Concerning playing g5 right after white's Nh4, as I wrote, I did not check that at all, as I think Nh4 is a weak move.
But if I look at it now as an option, yes, I think g5 also draws.

It is true that engines show here some 120-130cps white edge, etc., but those are bogus scores. It is true white has better activity here, that is why the high engine score, because of mobility, but absolutely no winning/breaking through chances.

It is dangerous for white to move its king side pawns; d4 brings nothing, black constantly attacks a weak e5 pawns, so how does white break through?

For me, this is also a draw, and that is why I considered Nh4 weak.

As Carlsen says, he looks at moves suggested by engines, but does not pay too much attention to them.
Same with me, I look at engine evals, but am not too much bothered with them.

There are 200cps engine evals that are straightforward draws, and 50cps engines evals that are straightforward wins. I know how to distinguish between them. I would rather choose a 50cps winning eval than a 200cps drawing one.

I am glad Mr. Flesher supports you, that means I am on the right track. :D
zullil
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:31 am
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by zullil »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: It is dangerous for white to move its king side pawns; d4 brings nothing, black constantly attacks a weak e5 pawns, so how does white break through?

For me, this is also a draw, and that is why I considered Nh4 weak.
[d]r4r2/3qp1bk/1pp1b2p/p1p1Pp2/P4P1N/1P1P3P/1BP1Q3/R4RK1 w - - 0 7
Stockfish seems to agree, in the sense that the evaluation and PV show little change as depth grows. No hint of any progress here for White, at least that SF sees.

Code: Select all

info depth 51 seldepth 85 multipv 1 score cp 102 nodes 166066924908 nps 20779402 tbhits 0 time 7991901 pv g1h2 g7h8 f1g1 f8g8 a1d1 a8d8 b2c3 d8b8 e2h5 d7e8 h5f3 e8d7 f3e2 b8d8 c3b2 g8g1 d1g1 e6f7 e5e6 d7e6 e2e6 f7e6 b2h8 h7h8 h4g6 h8h7 g6e7 e6d7 e7g6 b6b5 g6e5 d7e8 h2g3 h7g7 g3f2 g7f8 f2e3 d8b8 g1a1 b8a8 e3d2 a8a7 d2c3 f8g8 e5f3 g8f7 f3h4 e8d7 a1e1 b5a4 b3a4 a7b7 h4f3 f7f6 e1e5 b7b4 e5c5 b4f4 f3d4 f4h4 c5a5 h4h3 a5a7 d7e6 a7c7 e6d5 a4a5 f6e5 c7e7 e5f6
kbhearn
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:48 am

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by kbhearn »

You're shifting goalposts.
Black easily plays f5 after Nh4.

For example: Nh4 Be6 f4 Kh7 g4 f5
position after Kh7:

[d]r4r2/3qppbk/1pp1b1pp/p1p1P3/P4P1N/1P1P3P/1BP1Q1P1/R4RK1 w - - 1 5

unless of course instead of g4 white plays Rae1 here as in the sample line i gave above. The engine's pv follows b5 g4 bxa4 f5 axb3 fxe6 Qxe6 with a crazy position i don't have a clue how to evaluate personally. But in a wide open position with the engine saying +0.90 i'm inclined to believe the engine that white has a significant advantage.

I agree engine evals aren't always reliable, but you're dismissing their tactical reliability by passing over their choices for white in response to your strategy.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

kbhearn wrote:You're shifting goalposts.
Black easily plays f5 after Nh4.

For example: Nh4 Be6 f4 Kh7 g4 f5
position after Kh7:

[d]r4r2/3qppbk/1pp1b1pp/p1p1P3/P4P1N/1P1P3P/1BP1Q1P1/R4RK1 w - - 1 5

unless of course instead of g4 white plays Rae1 here as in the sample line i gave above. The engine's pv follows b5 g4 bxa4 f5 axb3 fxe6 Qxe6 with a crazy position i don't have a clue how to evaluate personally. But in a wide open position with the engine saying +0.90 i'm inclined to believe the engine that white has a significant advantage.

I agree engine evals aren't always reliable, but you're dismissing their tactical reliability by passing over their choices for white in response to your strategy.
I am passing nothing over. (btw., I have to check what both passing over and shifting goalposts mean; you have become too colloquial here)

When I tried this position a while ago, SF also wanted to play b5 all the time; but that is an extremely suspicious, I would even say weak move, totally not in line with the strategic approach the particular position requires.

I can not trust an engine that suggests in this position to play b5 for black.

There is certainly a reply other than b5 that would allow black to further play f5, but just do not have the time to check this position again immediately.

Maybe a bit later I will tell you what black should play on Rae1.
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

OK, the only black move that will still allow to play f5 after Rae1 is Rae8, and I am inclined to play it without even checking any tactics.

What has actually changed after Rae1 and Rae8?

So, we have Rae1 Rae8 g4 f5

[d]4rr2/3qp1bk/1pp1b1pp/p1p1Pp2/P4PPN/1P1P3P/1BP1Q3/4RRK1 w - f6 0 3

and I claim this is a draw, without even checking it, although there seem to be a vast variety of tactical complications.

I will not check anything, I just trust Rae8, followed by f5 fully equalises on Rae1.

If you are able to, please refute my allegations.
kbhearn
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:48 am

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by kbhearn »

that did indeed get f5 in, and the engine's preferred line does indeed lead to a flatlined +0.95 position with little hope of progress. But when you give it a nudge to play exf6ep there still seems to be hope for a white win to me even if the eval is lower. But i will concede at this point that your plan seems to have better drawing chances than o-o-o did.

I can offer no suggestion as to how one would modify an engine to change that though. As at first glance everything about the black position in your setup is miserable. Lack of space, completely passive. Just no way to bring enough pressure on g6 to actually break the otherwise poor position.
Dicaste
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:23 pm
Location: Istanbul, TURKEY

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by Dicaste »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:OK, the only black move that will still allow to play f5 after Rae1 is Rae8, and I am inclined to play it without even checking any tactics.

What has actually changed after Rae1 and Rae8?

So, we have Rae1 Rae8 g4 f5

[d]4rr2/3qp1bk/1pp1b1pp/p1p1Pp2/P4PPN/1P1P3P/1BP1Q3/4RRK1 w - f6 0 3

and I claim this is a draw, without even checking it, although there seem to be a vast variety of tactical complications.

I will not check anything, I just trust Rae8, followed by f5 fully equalises on Rae1.

If you are able to, please refute my allegations.
Artista's Line with +0.40 score so i assume Lyudmil is correct again. This is draw.

Code: Select all


3. Kh2 Rd8 4. gxf5 Bxf5 5. Rg1 Qe6 6. Rg3 h5 7. Bc1 Bh6 8. Reg1 Rg8 9. Qf3 Rdf8
10. Bd2 Qd5 11. Qd1 Qe6 *

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

kbhearn wrote:that did indeed get f5 in, and the engine's preferred line does indeed lead to a flatlined +0.95 position with little hope of progress. But when you give it a nudge to play exf6ep there still seems to be hope for a white win to me even if the eval is lower. But i will concede at this point that your plan seems to have better drawing chances than o-o-o did.

I can offer no suggestion as to how one would modify an engine to change that though. As at first glance everything about the black position in your setup is miserable. Lack of space, completely passive. Just no way to bring enough pressure on g6 to actually break the otherwise poor position.
Flatlined?
Nudge?

In need of dictionary again. :)

ef6 should be just as simple draw as the other lines.

I do not know what is so miserable about the black setup.
I find it perfectly acceptable, and do not see how there black could be behind in eval, even by an inch, and even at the root.

It is good that you gave me a nudge to think a bit more about it...
ChessMaster
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2025 1:09 pm
Full name: Will Hare

Re: The short story of a long castling

Post by ChessMaster »

There exists Long-Long Castling too, it deserves to be mentioned in history of long castling.

Image

Image

Which chess software supports it natively? I give preference for DOS over Windows.