We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

[Chessqueen]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg

[lkaufman]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

[Chessqueen]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

[lkaufman]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.

[chrisw]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.

I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.

[lkaufman]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.

I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.

I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.

[Chessqueen]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.

I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.

I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.

This is what Chrisw wrote, but it turn out that 49 moves for the previous games time 20 seconds per move is equal to = 16.333 minutes Not to much of a difference.

"I have a range of PCs. From 64x threadripper to 6x i7 laptop through some 6x i7 PCs, all with GPU, but I don’t suppose Dragon is using GPU?
In practice, I quite like the iPhone, because then I can play a few moves on the cafe or whatever. I’m pretty unlikely to sit down for a serious time controlled session - I get too many interruptions.
So, probably the laptop. I guess, being reasonable, can human hold against computer, I’ld suggest “friendly” correspondence conditions for me and game in 15 for you. I’m pretty busy right now.
Alternatively, play move by move in public forum. I’ll have to trust you to stick to move as game in 15, and you’ll have to trust me to not ask Stockfish. Anyway, you could tell if I was using comp help. And kibitzers could keep their mouths shut.
Ed’s forum? I’m sure he could set something up.

[Chessqueen]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.

I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.

I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.

I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my my and once I see you posting it I will post my, since it take me longer to make my move only you every 5 moves can post the diagram here and I will simply write down the move # 5. for instance 5 .e3. Bb4 etc.. tell me when to start, once you start and I see you posting your move for instance 1.e4... immediately I will post my move and we will stay here until the game is completed
[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]

[Chessqueen]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.

I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.

I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.

I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my my and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most. We can start at 8:00PM eastern time or you tell me when to start !

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]

[lkaufman]

[pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).

Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can.

The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.

So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2"

Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.

I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.

I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.

I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my my and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most. We can start at 8:00PM eastern time or you tell me when to start !

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]

I can't do it tonite but tomorrow night should be ok.