Fritz 18 still without NNUE?

[AlexChess]

On November 15 will be published the 79€ Chessbase Fritz 18 by Frank Schneider. Fritz 17 (Ginkgo renamed) from the same author is rated only 3143 by CEGT: http://www.cegt.net/40_40%20Rating%20Li ... n/245.html

Nonsense - FREE BanksiaGui 0.53 (Windows, Mac & Linux) is better as graphical interface and has a more options. https://banksiagui.com

Also supposing an improbable 200 Elo engine improvement (Chessbase says 30-40 ELO !!) , it will be much weaker than FREE 3700 ELO Stockfish 14.1 and derivatives, 70+ stronger FREE GPLv3 original engines (up to 3560+ ELO) and all other commercial engines like Dragon 2.5 (3600+ ELO), Ethereal 13.25 NNUE (3500+ ELO) and Revenge 1.0 (3400+ ELO)!

https://www.chesscentral.com/fritz-18-c ... -software/

Why doesn't they develop THEIR internal ORIGINAL Neural Network engine with 7-man tablebases support online???

Best Regards, Alex

At the turn of the century, Fritz fascinated the chess world with victories over Garry Kasparov and then-reigning World Champion Vladimir Kramnik. The "most popular chess program" (according to German magazine Der Spiegel) offers you everything you will need as a dedicated chess enthusiast, with innovative training methods for amateurs and professionals alike, plus access to the full suite of ChessBase web apps, including the Playchess playing server.

Fritz 18 - Here are the new highlights:

Evolving Genius: Fritz shows you what you are capable of being: an attacking player who can conjure up magnificent brilliancies over the board! The new playing mode leads you via a clever choice of variations to brilliant sacrificial combinations.

Intelligent tips: Fritz provides subtle hints which do not give away too much but which make it possible for you to be in control of difficult positions.

Visual evaluation: Much better than just a single number! Piece placement, pawn structure, king safety, activity and sharpness of the position displayed graphically in the engine window.

New chess board in Direct2D technology with a fresh look and improved animation.

New engine analysis: Interesting threats, appealing ideas and the game continuation are automatically analyzed at the same time in multi-variation mode.

Animated engine variations: Intuitive display of the best continuation on the board.

Improved calculation training: to give your Elo a quick boost.

Stronger Fritz 18 engine: by Frank Schneider, optimized for short time controls.

Fritz 18 has a new mode " Evolving Genius " and is an outstanding innovation! You learn to play an attacking game interactively. You play against Fritz set as a strong club player (or adjustable in levels: amateur to grandmaster), who makes no obvious mistakes, but whom you will masterfully outplay. This is possible thanks to AI-supported game management. The old handicap levels are not comparable to this, because they only led to gross mistakes that were easy to see.

Here, however, you learn to attack, to play actively, which you would not dare to do in a normal game against a human opponent. With Fritz 18 you can train for exactly that! And as a result you play real brilliant games!

In addition to the "guided" attacking game, we visualize the engine calculations: how well are your pieces positioned? King security? Activity? Sharpness of the position? etc. The "game value" of Fritz18 is massively better!

The new Fritz 18 engine has become about 30-40 Elo points stronger, but that is of no practical relevance. The current engines are only tested against other engines. For normal analysis, all engines find the best move within a few milliseconds in 99.99% of positions. That is why we have based our analysis on practical utility: Fritz simulates a strong club player and LEADS you with subtle hints to a strong attack you can be proud of. You have never trained with so much fun.

Evolving Genius: Fritz shows you what you are capable of being: an attacking player who can conjure up magnificent brilliance over the board! The new playing mode leads you via a clever choice of variations to brilliant sacrificial combination
Intelligent tips: Fritz provides subtle hints which do not give away too much but which make it possible for you to be in control of difficult position
Visual evaluation: Much better than just a single number! Piece placement, pawn structure, king safety, activity and sharpness of the position displayed graphically in the engine wind
New chess board in Direct2D technology with a fresh look and improved animation
New engine analysis: Interesting threats, appealing ideas and the game continuation are automatically analysed at the same time in multi-variation mod
Animated engine variations: Intuitive display of the best continuation on the boa
Improved calculation training to give your Elo a quick boost.
Stronger Fritz 18 engine by Frank Schneider, optimised for short time controls.

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
Minimum: Dual Core, 2 GB RAM, Windows 7 or 8.1, DirectX11, graphics card with 256 MB RAM, DVD-ROM-drive, Windows Media Player 9 and Internet access. Recommended: PC Intel i5 or AMD Ryzen 3 (Quadcore), 8 GB RAM, Windows 10 with 64-Bit (current version), NVIDIA RTX graphic card with 6 GB RAM and current driver, Windows Media Player 11, (DVD-ROM drive) and Internet access.

[mvanthoor]

If you still buy Chessbase software, you do it for the Mega Database, and the Chessbase program, which is (still) unrivaled with regard to searching for positions, themes, and opening preparation, etcetera.

Their best userinterface was that of Fritz 11, and I still use it nowadays; it even runs in Wine. (It looks like a program running on Windows XP in Classic mode, but for a chess program, that's fine with me.) Their best version of Chessbase were versions 9-12, and I still use version 12 in Wine. The WineHQ page states that newer versions don't install because they won't accept any serial number. Fortunately, version 12 does install and work correctly, activated and all. I cut Chessbase off the internet, and backed up that Wine install. I'll use that as long as I can get it to run.

I didn't update Fritz 11 to 12 or 13 because of the activation scheme. If I had known, I would also not have updated to Chessbase 12 about a decade ago. I'm not interested in "Frtiz" 14, because it's not Fritz; it's just some engine, running in a userinterface/program that is now called Fritz. The last real Fritz by Fransch Morsch was Deep Fritz 13.

At the moment I'm indeed looking into Banksia GUI on Linux, and it seems to be a fine interface to replace the Fritz 11 GUI. There isn't a decent alternative for Chessbase though. SCID works, but it's horrendously ugly in my KDE desktop. Everything is bright white and light gray (without an option to change this as far as I can see) while the rest of the desktop is in dark mode.

The Windows-version of SCID supports color schemes. There is a theming possibility for Wine. Maybe I'll run the Windows-version fo SCID in Wine. Have to try that some day. Oh, the irony...

Apart from (maybe, still evaluating), I dislike _all_ current-day chess user interfaces. They all feel as if we're stuck in the 90's with some modern user interface elements slapped on top.

[AlexChess]

True,
Chessbase is still the best choice for database, but I don't understand why they doesn't apply the same care to build an internal 3700 ELO chess engine using their servers to offer something that is impossible to make for the other engine developers, justifying the price.

BanksiaGui is becoming continuously better and we are still at 0.53 beta! I think that next updates will be dedicated to database features

Best regards, Alex

[AdminX]

If you still buy Chessbase software, you do it for the Mega Database, and the Chessbase program, which is (still) unrivaled with regard to searching for positions, themes, and opening preparation, etcetera.

Their best userinterface was that of Fritz 11, and I still use it nowadays; it even runs in Wine. (It looks like a program running on Windows XP in Classic mode, but for a chess program, that's fine with me.) Their best version of Chessbase were versions 9-12, and I still use version 12 in Wine. The WineHQ page states that newer versions don't install because they won't accept any serial number. Fortunately, version 12 does install and work correctly, activated and all. I cut Chessbase off the internet, and backed up that Wine install. I'll use that as long as I can get it to run.

I didn't update Fritz 11 to 12 or 13 because of the activation scheme. If I had known, I would also not have updated to Chessbase 12 about a decade ago. I'm not interested in "Frtiz" 14, because it's not Fritz; it's just some engine, running in a userinterface/program that is now called Fritz. The last real Fritz by Fransch Morsch was Deep Fritz 13.

At the moment I'm indeed looking into Banksia GUI on Linux, and it seems to be a fine interface to replace the Fritz 11 GUI. There isn't a decent alternative for Chessbase though. SCID works, but it's horrendously ugly in my KDE desktop. Everything is bright white and light gray (without an option to change this as far as I can see) while the rest of the desktop is in dark mode.

The Windows-version of SCID supports color schemes. There is a theming possibility for Wine. Maybe I'll run the Windows-version fo SCID in Wine. Have to try that some day. Oh, the irony...

Apart from (maybe, still evaluating), I dislike _all_ current-day chess user interfaces. They all feel as if we're stuck in the 90's with some modern user interface elements slapped on top.

It will be interesting to see how 'Chessquid' turns out since it is reported to be cross platform. Release date is 14 days away. I think their design looks childish. Still it might have some powerful features.

[Jouni]

Time runs: 30 years from Fritz1 . I had it in 12 Mhz AT. Today I use Fritz12. Some bugs, but none serious.

[Cornfed]

True,
Chessbase is still the best choice for database, but I don't understand why they doesn't apply the same care to build an internal 3700 ELO chess engine using their servers to offer something that is impossible to make for the other engine developers, justifying the price.

BanksiaGui is becoming continuously better and we are still at 0.53 beta! I think that next updates will be dedicated to database features

Best regards, Alex

Because, Alex, Fritz is a GUI first and foremost. FAR more simpler than Banksia...which - from the posts here is clearly geared toward engine vs engine play and more and more for people who get their jollies off of pushing engines thru their paces at online sites where. Fritz if FAR EASIER for the average person to use for simple engine vs engine matches, I believe. All the extra features in Banksia have their place for those who need them...but it's convoluted and frankly...breaks constantly. How could it not the way it has been cobbled together with the developer trying to listen to everyones whim (?). That...was a rhetorical question really.

Besides...one can us any ol' 'engine' within the Fritz GUI if one need to. Why chase the 'engine building arms race'? That's so 1950's (quick children, duck under your desks!). What is strong enough...to blow up the word once over...or three times?

These new features and it's history indicate it is for humans to use and spar and train against....it's main purpose. Can Banksia do that? No, not exactly. So, it has a clear commercial purpose. There however is no need to buy each new iteration if the previous one suffices the user.

The blurb: "The new Fritz 18 engine has become about 30-40 Elo points stronger, but that is of no practical relevance. The current engines are only tested against other engines. For normal analysis, all engines find the best move within a few milliseconds in 99.99% of positions. That is why we have based our analysis on practical utility: Fritz simulates a strong club player and LEADS you with subtle hints to a strong attack you can be proud of. You have never trained with so much fun."

Sounds like a promising thing for the majority of human players.

[Madeleine Birchfield]

Why are they selling Frank Schneider's engine as Fritz and not as Gingko?

[Madeleine Birchfield]

The blurb: "The new Fritz 18 engine has become about 30-40 Elo points stronger, but that is of no practical relevance. The current engines are only tested against other engines. For normal analysis, all engines find the best move within a few milliseconds in 99.99% of positions. That is why we have based our analysis on practical utility: Fritz simulates a strong club player and LEADS you with subtle hints to a strong attack you can be proud of. You have never trained with so much fun."

Sounds like a promising thing for the majority of human players.

That is simoly not true, Engines that use handcrafted evaluation have a hard time finding the optimal move in the opening/first few moves, and that is no different of Fritz. For the longedt time, Stockfish and Komodo would choose to play the French Defense against 1.e4, and the Exchange against the French, despite the Najdorf and Petroff being far superior for black. and the Steinitz/Winewar being better for white. I don't see it being any different with Fritz 18/Gingko. It is why those players who want to use engines for opening prep and normal analysis have long since moved to engines with neural networks in them.

[Cornfed]

The blurb: "The new Fritz 18 engine has become about 30-40 Elo points stronger, but that is of no practical relevance. The current engines are only tested against other engines. For normal analysis, all engines find the best move within a few milliseconds in 99.99% of positions. That is why we have based our analysis on practical utility: Fritz simulates a strong club player and LEADS you with subtle hints to a strong attack you can be proud of. You have never trained with so much fun."

Sounds like a promising thing for the majority of human players.

That is simoly not true, Engines that use handcrafted evaluation have a hard time finding the optimal move in the opening/first few moves, and that is no different of Fritz. For the longedt time, Stockfish and Komodo would choose to play the French Defense against 1.e4, and the Exchange against the French, despite the Najdorf and Petroff being far superior for black. and the Steinitz/Winewar being better for white. I don't see it being any different with Fritz 18/Gingko. It is why those players who want to use engines for opening prep and normal analysis have long since moved to engines with neural networks in them.

I am not going to defend their comment...but what are you objecting to? I presume the part about

"For normal analysis, all engines find the best move within a few milliseconds in 99.99% of positions." ?

Specifically in the "first few moves" of an opening?

[Cornfed]

The blurb: "The new Fritz 18 engine has become about 30-40 Elo points stronger, but that is of no practical relevance. The current engines are only tested against other engines. For normal analysis, all engines find the best move within a few milliseconds in 99.99% of positions. That is why we have based our analysis on practical utility: Fritz simulates a strong club player and LEADS you with subtle hints to a strong attack you can be proud of. You have never trained with so much fun."

Sounds like a promising thing for the majority of human players.

That is simoly not true, Engines that use handcrafted evaluation have a hard time finding the optimal move in the opening/first few moves, and that is no different of Fritz. For the longedt time, Stockfish and Komodo would choose to play the French Defense against 1.e4, and the Exchange against the French, despite the Najdorf and Petroff being far superior for black. and the Steinitz/Winewar being better for white. I don't see it being any different with Fritz 18/Gingko. It is why those players who want to use engines for opening prep and normal analysis have long since moved to engines with neural networks in them.

I am not going to defend their comment...but what are you objecting to? I presume the part about

"For normal analysis, all engines find the best move within a few milliseconds in 99.99% of positions." ?

Specifically in the "first few moves" of an opening?

I'm still curious as to what it is you find 'untrue'...the whole of what you referenced or just some part of it.