Komodo Dragon vs GM Ben Finegold knight odds match.

[lkaufman]

On Jan.15, starting at 7 p.m. Eastern Time, Komodo Dragon will take on GM Ben Finegold in a six game Rapid match giving him knight odds. Finegold will play with standard Rapid time control (15' + 10"), while Dragon will be playing blitz (3' + 2"), although the clocks will display as if both are playing Rapid. The match will be played on chess.com and broadcast on Twitch ( with Finegold commenting during and/or after games. Match flyer https://atlchessclub.com/Flyers/Finegol ... hFlyer.jpg. Komodo plays White as is standard when giving knight odds, removing b1 or g1 knight, my choice before each game (though both options will be used). Hardware expected to be my 32 core Threadripper. Dragon version expected to be 2.6.1 or very close to it, but perhaps with a different net. Settings at my discretion. The match should be available for viewing on YouTube afterwards, so European fans can still watch the event without having to stay up all night. Likely duration of the match with breaks is between 3 and 4 hours. There is prize money per game as well as for the match, so all games will be played with something at stake even if match victory is decided before the end. Finegold will have a copy of Dragon 2.6.1 in advance for practice.

Ben Finegold, age 52, is FIDE rated 2446, FIDE blitz rated 2501 (no FIDE rapid rating), and chess.com Blitz 2802. His peak FIDE rating was 2563 in 2006, he was among the very best blitz players in the U.S. for many years, and based on his chess.com blitz rating is still a very strong grandmaster in fast games. He is also well known for his entertaining commentary as a streamer.

In previous Rapid matches giving knight odds, Dragon defeated I.M. Andras Toth by 4.5 to 1.5, lost to GM Anthony Wirig by 6 to 3 (although "winning" by 5 to 4 due to draws counting as wins for Dragon per agreement), and lost to GM Eugene Perelshteyn by 4 to 2. So although we have lost both past matches with GMs by normal scoring, we have a total record giving knight odds against this titled field (averaging 2470 FIDE) of 6 wins, 8 losses, and 7 draws, or 45%, for a 2437 elo performance. In view of Finegold's proficiency in fast chess, I expect we'll lose this match too, I just hope it will be reasonably competitive.

Will Drago play in MCTS or classic mode?

My present opinion is that with Rapid time control for Dragon, MCTS would be better, but since Dragon will be playing blitz (but not Finegold), I think it will have better chances in classic mode. Of course I can always be persuaded by new evidence, but with a week to go that seems unlikely.

[Chessqueen]

I believe that commenting during the game reduce the playing strength of the human player so it is better for him not to comment about the game during the game.

That's up to him; I imagine he'll make some comments during the game, but leave detailed analysis to the breaks between the games. I don't think it hurts playing strength much to say things like "better move my knight that he attacked" for example.

Will you chose 4 games with g1 Knight Odds and 2 with b1 Knight Odds, to increase the chances of Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 ?

[lkaufman]

I believe that commenting during the game reduce the playing strength of the human player so it is better for him not to comment about the game during the game.

That's up to him; I imagine he'll make some comments during the game, but leave detailed analysis to the breaks between the games. I don't think it hurts playing strength much to say things like "better move my knight that he attacked" for example.

Will you chose 4 games with g1 Knight Odds and 2 with b1 Knight Odds, to increase the chances of Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 ?

Well, the point of the format is that I don't have to decide in advance, I can see which knight removal gives Dragon less hopeless positions after the opening and choose accordingly for later games. We generally got less awful positions in previous matches with g1 removal, but that depends on the choice of defenses by the human; perhaps it will be different with Ben. They lead to very different types of games. I should use the engine "Benjamin" to simulate Ben Finegold for testing, since they are both "Ben"

[Chessqueen]

I believe that commenting during the game reduce the playing strength of the human player so it is better for him not to comment about the game during the game.

That's up to him; I imagine he'll make some comments during the game, but leave detailed analysis to the breaks between the games. I don't think it hurts playing strength much to say things like "better move my knight that he attacked" for example.

Will you chose 4 games with g1 Knight Odds and 2 with b1 Knight Odds, to increase the chances of Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 ?

Well, the point of the format is that I don't have to decide in advance, I can see which knight removal gives Dragon less hopeless positions after the opening and choose accordingly for later games. We generally got less awful positions in previous matches with g1 removal, but that depends on the choice of defenses by the human; perhaps it will be different with Ben. They lead to very different types of games. I should use the engine "Benjamin" to simulate Ben Finegold for testing, since they are both "Ben"

After watching several times this video of GM Finegold making comments about GM Smerdon match and how much he criticized the opening choice of Komodo Dragon, I can NOT wait until I see GM Finegold being crushed by Komodo Dragon 2.6.1

[lkaufman]

I believe that commenting during the game reduce the playing strength of the human player so it is better for him not to comment about the game during the game.

That's up to him; I imagine he'll make some comments during the game, but leave detailed analysis to the breaks between the games. I don't think it hurts playing strength much to say things like "better move my knight that he attacked" for example.

Will you chose 4 games with g1 Knight Odds and 2 with b1 Knight Odds, to increase the chances of Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 ?

Well, the point of the format is that I don't have to decide in advance, I can see which knight removal gives Dragon less hopeless positions after the opening and choose accordingly for later games. We generally got less awful positions in previous matches with g1 removal, but that depends on the choice of defenses by the human; perhaps it will be different with Ben. They lead to very different types of games. I should use the engine "Benjamin" to simulate Ben Finegold for testing, since they are both "Ben"

After watching several times this video of GM Finegold making comments about GM Smerdon match and how much he criticized the opening choice of Komodo Dragon, I can NOT wait until I see GM Finegold being crushed by Komodo Dragon 2.6.1

Note that the Smerdon match was pre-Dragon, i.e. against regular Komodo. Very different. I don't think Finegold will be crushed in this match, but perhaps in some individual game of the match. So far every human opponent of Komodo in knight odds matches in the last four years has lost at least one game.

[Chessqueen]

I believe that commenting during the game reduce the playing strength of the human player so it is better for him not to comment about the game during the game.

That's up to him; I imagine he'll make some comments during the game, but leave detailed analysis to the breaks between the games. I don't think it hurts playing strength much to say things like "better move my knight that he attacked" for example.

Will you chose 4 games with g1 Knight Odds and 2 with b1 Knight Odds, to increase the chances of Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 ?

Well, the point of the format is that I don't have to decide in advance, I can see which knight removal gives Dragon less hopeless positions after the opening and choose accordingly for later games. We generally got less awful positions in previous matches with g1 removal, but that depends on the choice of defenses by the human; perhaps it will be different with Ben. They lead to very different types of games. I should use the engine "Benjamin" to simulate Ben Finegold for testing, since they are both "Ben"

After watching several times this video of GM Finegold making comments about GM Smerdon match and how much he criticized the opening choice of Komodo Dragon, I can NOT wait until I see GM Finegold being crushed by Komodo Dragon 2.6.1

Note that the Smerdon match was pre-Dragon, i.e. against regular Komodo. Very different. I don't think Finegold will be crushed in this match, but perhaps in some individual game of the match. So far every human opponent of Komodo in knight odds matches in the last four years has lost at least one game.

I did NOT meant crushed, but at least he will lose 2 games to Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 I hope.

[CMCanavessi]

Ben is a legend, especially while teaching children. C4 is explosive!

[Cornfed]

Ben Finegold, age 52, is FIDE rated 2446, FIDE blitz rated 2501 (no FIDE rapid rating), and chess.com Blitz 2802. His peak FIDE rating was 2563 in 2006, he was among the very best blitz players in the U.S. for many years, and based on his chess.com blitz rating is still a very strong grandmaster in fast games. He is also well known for his entertaining commentary as a streamer.

A VERY large part of a players strength is his knowing what to do in certain types of positions....tabiyas, priyome's, patterns - whatever you want to call them. The stronger the player, the more he can rely on these tools.

So isn't it certain in these 'odds' exhibitions that a human opponents real 'strength' is far less than ones published rating - FIDE, Blitz, etc.?

[lkaufman]

Ben Finegold, age 52, is FIDE rated 2446, FIDE blitz rated 2501 (no FIDE rapid rating), and chess.com Blitz 2802. His peak FIDE rating was 2563 in 2006, he was among the very best blitz players in the U.S. for many years, and based on his chess.com blitz rating is still a very strong grandmaster in fast games. He is also well known for his entertaining commentary as a streamer.

A VERY large part of a players strength is his knowing what to do in certain types of positions....tabiyas, priyome's, patterns - whatever you want to call them. The stronger the player, the more he can rely on these tools.

So isn't it certain in these 'odds' exhibitions that a human opponents real 'strength' is far less than ones published rating - FIDE, Blitz, etc.?

Well, "strength" is only relative to something, not absolute. If you are saying that a 2500 elo player is not 500 elo stronger than a 2000 elo player in modified circumstances such as odds play, well, I would only agree if the modification is severe, such as playing "crazyhouse chess" for example; we know that in chess960, the superiority of top players is no less than it is in normal chess. If you are saying that all humans play worse as the game becomes less familiar, that is true, and the extent depends on how weird the circumstances are. If the handicap was something bizarre such as that the engine couldn't make "long" moves or more than 3 checks or had to mate in certain ways, then it would diminish the humans strength. If we start with a weird position, that does diminish the humans strength; I would bet a lot of money on this match if it were FRC with knight odds (as we did with Lenderman in 2000). Even the classic handicap of "pawn and two moves" (f7 removed, White plays e4 and a second move of his choice) is a bit tough for humans as they are not familiar with how to exploit the weakened king at the start, which is probably why no human ever beat Komodo at this handicap in a public game. But knowing what to do with an extra piece is the most fundamental piece of knowledge in the arsenal of any strong chess player, and starting a game with all the pieces on their normal squares but with White having "blundered" a knight is the most normal, easily exploitable advantage I can imagine for a human master. He can play any normal opening, he can place his pieces as in a normal game, and he has already won a piece. In fact all tests suggest that human masters/grandmasters are better at winning with knight odds than are engines of similar playing strength.
So I guess I would say that I agree with your statement in general, but not in the specific case at hand, classic knight odds.

[Chessqueen]

Ben Finegold, age 52, is FIDE rated 2446, FIDE blitz rated 2501 (no FIDE rapid rating), and chess.com Blitz 2802. His peak FIDE rating was 2563 in 2006, he was among the very best blitz players in the U.S. for many years, and based on his chess.com blitz rating is still a very strong grandmaster in fast games. He is also well known for his entertaining commentary as a streamer.

A VERY large part of a players strength is his knowing what to do in certain types of positions....tabiyas, priyome's, patterns - whatever you want to call them. The stronger the player, the more he can rely on these tools.

So isn't it certain in these 'odds' exhibitions that a human opponents real 'strength' is far less than ones published rating - FIDE, Blitz, etc.?

Well, "strength" is only relative to something, not absolute. If you are saying that a 2500 elo player is not 500 elo stronger than a 2000 elo player in modified circumstances such as odds play, well, I would only agree if the modification is severe, such as playing "crazyhouse chess" for example; we know that in chess960, the superiority of top players is no less than it is in normal chess. If you are saying that all humans play worse as the game becomes less familiar, that is true, and the extent depends on how weird the circumstances are. If the handicap was something bizarre such as that the engine couldn't make "long" moves or more than 3 checks or had to mate in certain ways, then it would diminish the humans strength. If we start with a weird position, that does diminish the humans strength; I would bet a lot of money on this match if it were FRC with knight odds (as we did with Lenderman in 2000). Even the classic handicap of "pawn and two moves" (f7 removed, White plays e4 and a second move of his choice) is a bit tough for humans as they are not familiar with how to exploit the weakened king at the start, which is probably why no human ever beat Komodo at this handicap in a public game. But knowing what to do with an extra piece is the most fundamental piece of knowledge in the arsenal of any strong chess player, and starting a game with all the pieces on their normal squares but with White having "blundered" a knight is the most normal, easily exploitable advantage I can imagine for a human master. He can play any normal opening, he can place his pieces as in a normal game, and he has already won a piece. In fact all tests suggest that human masters/grandmasters are better at winning with knight odds than are engines of similar playing strength.
So I guess I would say that I agree with your statement in general, but not in the specific case at hand, classic knight odds.

So if it was FRC Komodo Dragon 3/6/1 could probably give GM Finegold a Rook Odds and Draw. Ask him to play 2 extra games under that condition?