Chess324

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Chess324

Post by Chessqueen »

It seems weir or strange after human are used to play symmetrical position and suddenly have to play asymmetrical positions in some cases, but for Engines it does NOT matter at all, some of these positions have a slight advantage for White and some for Black :roll:
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.08.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Berserk-9-x64-avx2-pext"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[ECO "Shuffl"]
[Opening "e Chess"]
[BlackElo "3535"]
[Time "09:53:39"]
[WhiteElo "3550"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rbbnknqr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RBBQKNNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "7"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]


1. e4 {(e2-e4 d7-d6 Ng1-e2 a7-a6 c2-c3 Bb8-a7 d2-d4 e7-e5 Bc1-e3 Nf8-g6
Nf1-g3 h7-h5 Ng3-f5 h5-h4 h2-h3 Nd8-e6 Qd1-d2 Bc8-d7 O-O f7-f6 b2-b4 Qg8-f7
a2-a4 O-O-O) +1.60/22 5} c6 {(c7-c6 d2-d4 d7-d5 c2-c3 d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5
Be4-d3 Nf8-g6 h2-h4 Qg8-e6+ Qd1-e2 Qe6xe2+ Ng1xe2 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 d4xe5
Bb8xe5 Nf1-h2 Be5-c7 h5-h6 g7-g6 O-O Nd8-e6 Rf1-e1 Bc8-d7 Ne2-d4 Ne6xd4
c3xd4) -1.19/25 7} 2. d4 {(d2-d4 g7-g5 c2-c3 h7-h5 a2-a4 h5-h4 Nf1-e3
Bb8-c7 a4-a5 Nd8-e6 Ng1-e2 Ne6-f4 O-O d7-d6 Kg1-h1 Nf4xe2 Qd1xe2 Nf8-g6
h2-h3 Bc8-d7 Ne3-f5 f7-f6 Rf1-e1 O-O-O a5-a6) +1.56/23 9} d5 {(d7-d5 c2-c3
d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5 Be4-c2 Qg8-e6+ Nf1-e3 Qe6-f6 Qd1-e2 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3 Ng6-f4
Qe2-f1 Nd8-f7 Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 O-O-O Bc8-d7 Rd1-e1 O-O-O Ne3-c4 Bd7-e6 Nc4-e5
Nf4-g6 Ne5xf7 Be6xf7 Bd2-g5) -1.17/27 9} 3. exd5 {(e4xd5 c6xd5 Nf1-e3 f7-f5
Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-d3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3
O-O O-O Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 f2-f4 Be5-c7 Ne3-d5 Bd7-c6 Nd5xc7 Qf7xc7 c2-c3
Nd8-e6 Bc1-e3 Qc7-f7 Bb1-c2 Ra8-d8 Qd3-e2 Rf8-e8) +1.68/25 7} cxd5 {(c6xd5
Nf1-e3 f7-f5 Qd1-f3 e7-e6 Qf3-e2 Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6 Nd5-b4 O-O Ng1-f3
e6-e5 d4xe5 Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 O-O Rf8-e8 Qe2-f3 Nd8-c6 Nb4xc6 b7xc6
c2-c3 Bc8-a6 Rf1-d1 Be5xh2+ Kg1xh2 Ba6-e2) -1.13/24 7} 4. Ne3 {(Nf1-e3
f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+
Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 c2-c3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 O-O-O
Bb1-f5+ Kc8-b8 b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-g6 Ke1-f2 Bc6-b7 Bc1-a3 Rh8-e8 Nd2-e4
Ng6-h4) +1.73/26 6} f5 {(f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7
Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 Ng1-f3 e5xd4 O-O Nf8-e6 Rf1-e1
Bb8-c7 Bc1-d2 O-O-O c2-c3 Nf7-g5 Nc4-e5 Ng5xf3+ Ne5xf3 g7-g5 c3xd4 g5-g4
Nf3-e5 Ne6xd4) -1.42/26 14} 5. Qf3 {(Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5
Nc4-a3 Bb5-c6 Ne2xf4 Bb8xf4 Bc1xf4 e7-e5 Bf4-g3 Bc6xg2 Rh1-g1 Bg2-f3 Ke1-d2
Nf8-e6 d4xe5 O-O-O+ Kd2-c3 Rh8-e8) +1.69/24 6} Qf7 {(Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6
h2-h4 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 Nd5xe7 Qf7xe7 Qf3-e2 e5xd4 a2-a3 Bc8-e6 Ng1-f3
Be6-c4 Qe2xe7+ Ke8xe7 Nf3xd4 Ke7-f6 Bb1-a2 Rh8-e8+ Ke1-d1 Bc4xa2 Ra1xa2
a7-a5 b2-b3 Bb8-e5 Rh1-e1 Nd8-c6 Nd4xc6 b7xc6) -1.32/27 25} 6. Qxd5
{(Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5
h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 c2-c3 Bb5-c6 O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 O-O
d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Ne2xf4 Ng6xf4 Bc1xf4 Ne5xc4 Bf4xb8 Ra8xb8 b3xc4 Rb8-d8 Bb1-e4
Rd8-d2 Be4xc6 b7xc6 Re1-f1 a7-a5 a2-a4) +1.66/24 4} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5
O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 Bc6xf3 g2xf3 Ng6-h4 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Kg1-f1 h7-h5 b2-b3 g5-g4
Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7 Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Bc1xf4 Kb7-c8 f3xg4 h5xg4 Re7xc7+ Kc8xc7
Nc4xd6) -1.22/27 6} 7. Qb5+ {(Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bb5xc4 b3xc4
Bb8xe5 c2-c3 f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-d4 Nf8-e6 Nd4xe6 Be5xc3+ Bc1-d2 Bc3xa1
Ne6-c7+ Ke8-e7 Nc7xa8 Rh8xa8 Bb1xh7 Nf7-e5 Bh7-e4 Ke7-d6 O-O) +1.89/25 6}
Bd7 {(Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4
h7-h6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Rh1xh8 Nf7xh8 c2-c3 Nh8-f7 b2-b3 O-O-O Bc1-a3 g5-g4
Bb1-c2 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-e6 O-O-O Ne6-g5 Ba3xe7 Rd8-e8 Be7xg5 Nf7xg5 Bc2-d3
f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-g3 Bc7xg3 f2xg3 f3-f2) -1.30/29 7} 8. Qb3 {(Qb5-b3
f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 e5xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 Ke1-f2 Rf8-d8 Bd2-c3 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d2 Bc7-b6 Rh1-e1
Nf7-d6) +1.76/27 4} f4 {(f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5
h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O a2-a4 e7-e5
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 Be4-d5 Rg8-g7 O-O-O e5-e4 Rd1-e1 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Bc7xd6 Ne2-g1
Bd7-f5 c3-c4 Ng6-h4 c4-c5) -1.10/28 6} 9. Qxf7+ {(Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4
Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 Ne6xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bb1-d3 b7-b5 Nc4-a3 a7-a6 Na3-c2 Nf7-g5 Bc1-a3 Rf8-e8+ Ke1-f2
Ng5-e6 Ra1-d1 Bb8-a7 Ba3-b2 Ra8-d8 Rh1-e1 Bd5-b7) +1.81/22 4} Nxf7 {(Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4
O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 a2-a4 e7-e5 b2-b3 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Rg8-e8 f2-f3 Ng6-e5 Nc4xe5
Nf7xe5 O-O-O Ne5-g4 Rd1-f1) -1.17/28 6} 10. Nc4 {(Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3
Bb8-c7 h2-h4 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d6+ Nf7xd6 e5xd6 Bc7xd6 c2-c3 O-O-O
Bc1-d2 Bd6-c7 Bb1-c2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O Nd7-c5 Nf3-d4 Bd5xg2 Rh1-g1 f4-f3 Rg1-e1
Kc8-b8) +1.77/24 4} Bc7 {(Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5 O-O Bc6xf3 g2xf3
Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Rf1-e1 Ng6-h4 Kg1-f1 h7-h5 a2-a4 g5-g4 Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7
Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Rd8xd6 Bc1xf4 Rd6-c6 f3xg4 h5xg4 d4-d5 Rc6-c4 Bf4-e5
Rh8-h5 Be5xc7 Rc4xc7 d5-d6) -1.31/28 16} 11. Ne2 {(Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf7-d6 Be4-c2
Bd7-f5 Ke1-d1 Nf8-g6 Bc1-a3 Rg8-h8 Rh1-g1 e7-e6 Ba3xd6 Rd8xd6 Bc2xf5 e6xf5
a2-a4 b5-b4 c3xb4 g5-g4 Kd1-c2 Rh8-e8) +1.78/26 9} g5 {(g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-d3 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 O-O-O Bc1-d2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O
g5-g4 Ne2xf4 g4xf3 Nf4-g6 Rg8xg6 Bd3xg6 f3xg2 Rh1-g1 Nf7-d6 Nc4-e3 Bc6-f3
Ne3xg2 Bf3xd1 Rg1xd1 e7-e5 Ng2-h4 e5xd4 c3xd4) -1.08/27 10} 12. h4 {(h2-h4
h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 Bc1-d2 e7-e5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 f2-f3
Kc8-b8 Bd3-f5 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-g6 Nc4xe5 Nf7xe5 d4xe5 Ng6-h4 Bf5-g4 Nh4xg2
e5-e6 Bc7-b6 Ne2-d4 Bb6xd4) +1.82/25 4} h6 {(h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 a2-a4 O-O-O
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Rh1-h7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ e7xd6 f2-f3
Ng6-h4 Ke1-f2 Bd7-f5 Be4xf5+ Nh4xf5 Bc1-d2 Re8-e6 Ra1-e1 Rg8-e8 Ne2-c1
Re6xe1 Bd2xe1 Bc7-a5 Be1-d2 Nf5-e3 Bd2xe3) -1.16/27 6} 13. c3 {(c2-c3
Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 e7-e5 Bc1-d2 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 Bd3-f5+ Kc8-b8
f2-f3 Nf8-g6 d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Nc4xe5 Bc7xe5 Bf5-e6 Rg8-g7 Ne2-d4 Be5xd4 c3xd4
Bc6-d5 Be6xd5 Rd8xd5 Rh1-h5 Rg7-c7+ Kc1-b1 Rc7-d7 Bd2-c3 Ng6-h4 Rd1-d2
Kb8-c7 Rd2-e2 b7-b6 Kb1-c1 Kc7-b7) +1.84/25 5} Rg8 {(Rh8-g8 b2-b3 O-O-O
a2-a4 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Bc1-d2 Ng6-h4 g2-g3 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+
e7xd6 Be4-d5 f4xg3 f2xg3 Bd7-g4 O-O-O Bg4xe2 Bd5xg8 Be2xd1 Kc1xd1 Re8xg8
g3xh4 g5xh4 Rh1xh4 b7-b6) -1.13/25 7} *[/pgn]
lkaufman
Posts: 6224
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: Chess324

Post by lkaufman »

Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:20 pm It seems weir or strange after human are used to play symmetrical position and suddenly have to play asymmetrical positions in some cases, but for Engines it does NOT matter at all, some of these positions have a slight advantage for White and some for Black :roll:
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.08.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Berserk-9-x64-avx2-pext"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[ECO "Shuffl"]
[Opening "e Chess"]
[BlackElo "3535"]
[Time "09:53:39"]
[WhiteElo "3550"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rbbnknqr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RBBQKNNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "7"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]


1. e4 {(e2-e4 d7-d6 Ng1-e2 a7-a6 c2-c3 Bb8-a7 d2-d4 e7-e5 Bc1-e3 Nf8-g6
Nf1-g3 h7-h5 Ng3-f5 h5-h4 h2-h3 Nd8-e6 Qd1-d2 Bc8-d7 O-O f7-f6 b2-b4 Qg8-f7
a2-a4 O-O-O) +1.60/22 5} c6 {(c7-c6 d2-d4 d7-d5 c2-c3 d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5
Be4-d3 Nf8-g6 h2-h4 Qg8-e6+ Qd1-e2 Qe6xe2+ Ng1xe2 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 d4xe5
Bb8xe5 Nf1-h2 Be5-c7 h5-h6 g7-g6 O-O Nd8-e6 Rf1-e1 Bc8-d7 Ne2-d4 Ne6xd4
c3xd4) -1.19/25 7} 2. d4 {(d2-d4 g7-g5 c2-c3 h7-h5 a2-a4 h5-h4 Nf1-e3
Bb8-c7 a4-a5 Nd8-e6 Ng1-e2 Ne6-f4 O-O d7-d6 Kg1-h1 Nf4xe2 Qd1xe2 Nf8-g6
h2-h3 Bc8-d7 Ne3-f5 f7-f6 Rf1-e1 O-O-O a5-a6) +1.56/23 9} d5 {(d7-d5 c2-c3
d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5 Be4-c2 Qg8-e6+ Nf1-e3 Qe6-f6 Qd1-e2 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3 Ng6-f4
Qe2-f1 Nd8-f7 Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 O-O-O Bc8-d7 Rd1-e1 O-O-O Ne3-c4 Bd7-e6 Nc4-e5
Nf4-g6 Ne5xf7 Be6xf7 Bd2-g5) -1.17/27 9} 3. exd5 {(e4xd5 c6xd5 Nf1-e3 f7-f5
Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-d3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3
O-O O-O Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 f2-f4 Be5-c7 Ne3-d5 Bd7-c6 Nd5xc7 Qf7xc7 c2-c3
Nd8-e6 Bc1-e3 Qc7-f7 Bb1-c2 Ra8-d8 Qd3-e2 Rf8-e8) +1.68/25 7} cxd5 {(c6xd5
Nf1-e3 f7-f5 Qd1-f3 e7-e6 Qf3-e2 Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6 Nd5-b4 O-O Ng1-f3
e6-e5 d4xe5 Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 O-O Rf8-e8 Qe2-f3 Nd8-c6 Nb4xc6 b7xc6
c2-c3 Bc8-a6 Rf1-d1 Be5xh2+ Kg1xh2 Ba6-e2) -1.13/24 7} 4. Ne3 {(Nf1-e3
f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+
Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 c2-c3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 O-O-O
Bb1-f5+ Kc8-b8 b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-g6 Ke1-f2 Bc6-b7 Bc1-a3 Rh8-e8 Nd2-e4
Ng6-h4) +1.73/26 6} f5 {(f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7
Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 Ng1-f3 e5xd4 O-O Nf8-e6 Rf1-e1
Bb8-c7 Bc1-d2 O-O-O c2-c3 Nf7-g5 Nc4-e5 Ng5xf3+ Ne5xf3 g7-g5 c3xd4 g5-g4
Nf3-e5 Ne6xd4) -1.42/26 14} 5. Qf3 {(Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5
Nc4-a3 Bb5-c6 Ne2xf4 Bb8xf4 Bc1xf4 e7-e5 Bf4-g3 Bc6xg2 Rh1-g1 Bg2-f3 Ke1-d2
Nf8-e6 d4xe5 O-O-O+ Kd2-c3 Rh8-e8) +1.69/24 6} Qf7 {(Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6
h2-h4 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 Nd5xe7 Qf7xe7 Qf3-e2 e5xd4 a2-a3 Bc8-e6 Ng1-f3
Be6-c4 Qe2xe7+ Ke8xe7 Nf3xd4 Ke7-f6 Bb1-a2 Rh8-e8+ Ke1-d1 Bc4xa2 Ra1xa2
a7-a5 b2-b3 Bb8-e5 Rh1-e1 Nd8-c6 Nd4xc6 b7xc6) -1.32/27 25} 6. Qxd5
{(Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5
h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 c2-c3 Bb5-c6 O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 O-O
d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Ne2xf4 Ng6xf4 Bc1xf4 Ne5xc4 Bf4xb8 Ra8xb8 b3xc4 Rb8-d8 Bb1-e4
Rd8-d2 Be4xc6 b7xc6 Re1-f1 a7-a5 a2-a4) +1.66/24 4} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5
O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 Bc6xf3 g2xf3 Ng6-h4 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Kg1-f1 h7-h5 b2-b3 g5-g4
Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7 Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Bc1xf4 Kb7-c8 f3xg4 h5xg4 Re7xc7+ Kc8xc7
Nc4xd6) -1.22/27 6} 7. Qb5+ {(Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bb5xc4 b3xc4
Bb8xe5 c2-c3 f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-d4 Nf8-e6 Nd4xe6 Be5xc3+ Bc1-d2 Bc3xa1
Ne6-c7+ Ke8-e7 Nc7xa8 Rh8xa8 Bb1xh7 Nf7-e5 Bh7-e4 Ke7-d6 O-O) +1.89/25 6}
Bd7 {(Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4
h7-h6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Rh1xh8 Nf7xh8 c2-c3 Nh8-f7 b2-b3 O-O-O Bc1-a3 g5-g4
Bb1-c2 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-e6 O-O-O Ne6-g5 Ba3xe7 Rd8-e8 Be7xg5 Nf7xg5 Bc2-d3
f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-g3 Bc7xg3 f2xg3 f3-f2) -1.30/29 7} 8. Qb3 {(Qb5-b3
f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 e5xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 Ke1-f2 Rf8-d8 Bd2-c3 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d2 Bc7-b6 Rh1-e1
Nf7-d6) +1.76/27 4} f4 {(f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5
h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O a2-a4 e7-e5
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 Be4-d5 Rg8-g7 O-O-O e5-e4 Rd1-e1 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Bc7xd6 Ne2-g1
Bd7-f5 c3-c4 Ng6-h4 c4-c5) -1.10/28 6} 9. Qxf7+ {(Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4
Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 Ne6xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bb1-d3 b7-b5 Nc4-a3 a7-a6 Na3-c2 Nf7-g5 Bc1-a3 Rf8-e8+ Ke1-f2
Ng5-e6 Ra1-d1 Bb8-a7 Ba3-b2 Ra8-d8 Rh1-e1 Bd5-b7) +1.81/22 4} Nxf7 {(Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4
O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 a2-a4 e7-e5 b2-b3 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Rg8-e8 f2-f3 Ng6-e5 Nc4xe5
Nf7xe5 O-O-O Ne5-g4 Rd1-f1) -1.17/28 6} 10. Nc4 {(Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3
Bb8-c7 h2-h4 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d6+ Nf7xd6 e5xd6 Bc7xd6 c2-c3 O-O-O
Bc1-d2 Bd6-c7 Bb1-c2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O Nd7-c5 Nf3-d4 Bd5xg2 Rh1-g1 f4-f3 Rg1-e1
Kc8-b8) +1.77/24 4} Bc7 {(Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5 O-O Bc6xf3 g2xf3
Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Rf1-e1 Ng6-h4 Kg1-f1 h7-h5 a2-a4 g5-g4 Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7
Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Rd8xd6 Bc1xf4 Rd6-c6 f3xg4 h5xg4 d4-d5 Rc6-c4 Bf4-e5
Rh8-h5 Be5xc7 Rc4xc7 d5-d6) -1.31/28 16} 11. Ne2 {(Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf7-d6 Be4-c2
Bd7-f5 Ke1-d1 Nf8-g6 Bc1-a3 Rg8-h8 Rh1-g1 e7-e6 Ba3xd6 Rd8xd6 Bc2xf5 e6xf5
a2-a4 b5-b4 c3xb4 g5-g4 Kd1-c2 Rh8-e8) +1.78/26 9} g5 {(g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-d3 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 O-O-O Bc1-d2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O
g5-g4 Ne2xf4 g4xf3 Nf4-g6 Rg8xg6 Bd3xg6 f3xg2 Rh1-g1 Nf7-d6 Nc4-e3 Bc6-f3
Ne3xg2 Bf3xd1 Rg1xd1 e7-e5 Ng2-h4 e5xd4 c3xd4) -1.08/27 10} 12. h4 {(h2-h4
h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 Bc1-d2 e7-e5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 f2-f3
Kc8-b8 Bd3-f5 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-g6 Nc4xe5 Nf7xe5 d4xe5 Ng6-h4 Bf5-g4 Nh4xg2
e5-e6 Bc7-b6 Ne2-d4 Bb6xd4) +1.82/25 4} h6 {(h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 a2-a4 O-O-O
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Rh1-h7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ e7xd6 f2-f3
Ng6-h4 Ke1-f2 Bd7-f5 Be4xf5+ Nh4xf5 Bc1-d2 Re8-e6 Ra1-e1 Rg8-e8 Ne2-c1
Re6xe1 Bd2xe1 Bc7-a5 Be1-d2 Nf5-e3 Bd2xe3) -1.16/27 6} 13. c3 {(c2-c3
Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 e7-e5 Bc1-d2 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 Bd3-f5+ Kc8-b8
f2-f3 Nf8-g6 d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Nc4xe5 Bc7xe5 Bf5-e6 Rg8-g7 Ne2-d4 Be5xd4 c3xd4
Bc6-d5 Be6xd5 Rd8xd5 Rh1-h5 Rg7-c7+ Kc1-b1 Rc7-d7 Bd2-c3 Ng6-h4 Rd1-d2
Kb8-c7 Rd2-e2 b7-b6 Kb1-c1 Kc7-b7) +1.84/25 5} Rg8 {(Rh8-g8 b2-b3 O-O-O
a2-a4 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Bc1-d2 Ng6-h4 g2-g3 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+
e7xd6 Be4-d5 f4xg3 f2xg3 Bd7-g4 O-O-O Bg4xe2 Bd5xg8 Be2xd1 Kc1xd1 Re8xg8
g3xh4 g5xh4 Rh1xh4 b7-b6) -1.13/25 7} *[/pgn]
Starting with asymmetrical positions does feel a bit weird to a human player, but that is a necessary consequence of avoiding the drawishness of symmetry. Either we start with symmetrical positions that are a near-certain draw at 3500 level, or we start with somewhat weird asymmetrical positions that are not drawish. Note that this is not just an issue for engines, since human correspondence play, also assisted by engines, is at that level where only asymmetric positions offer real chances of a decisive result. For over-the-board human play, chess960/FRC is still viable, as the draw percentage (at long time limits and top level) is high but not excessive.
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Chess324

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:52 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:20 pm It seems weir or strange after human are used to play symmetrical position and suddenly have to play asymmetrical positions in some cases, but for Engines it does NOT matter at all, some of these positions have a slight advantage for White and some for Black :roll:
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.08.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Berserk-9-x64-avx2-pext"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[ECO "Shuffl"]
[Opening "e Chess"]
[BlackElo "3535"]
[Time "09:53:39"]
[WhiteElo "3550"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rbbnknqr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RBBQKNNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "7"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]


1. e4 {(e2-e4 d7-d6 Ng1-e2 a7-a6 c2-c3 Bb8-a7 d2-d4 e7-e5 Bc1-e3 Nf8-g6
Nf1-g3 h7-h5 Ng3-f5 h5-h4 h2-h3 Nd8-e6 Qd1-d2 Bc8-d7 O-O f7-f6 b2-b4 Qg8-f7
a2-a4 O-O-O) +1.60/22 5} c6 {(c7-c6 d2-d4 d7-d5 c2-c3 d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5
Be4-d3 Nf8-g6 h2-h4 Qg8-e6+ Qd1-e2 Qe6xe2+ Ng1xe2 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 d4xe5
Bb8xe5 Nf1-h2 Be5-c7 h5-h6 g7-g6 O-O Nd8-e6 Rf1-e1 Bc8-d7 Ne2-d4 Ne6xd4
c3xd4) -1.19/25 7} 2. d4 {(d2-d4 g7-g5 c2-c3 h7-h5 a2-a4 h5-h4 Nf1-e3
Bb8-c7 a4-a5 Nd8-e6 Ng1-e2 Ne6-f4 O-O d7-d6 Kg1-h1 Nf4xe2 Qd1xe2 Nf8-g6
h2-h3 Bc8-d7 Ne3-f5 f7-f6 Rf1-e1 O-O-O a5-a6) +1.56/23 9} d5 {(d7-d5 c2-c3
d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5 Be4-c2 Qg8-e6+ Nf1-e3 Qe6-f6 Qd1-e2 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3 Ng6-f4
Qe2-f1 Nd8-f7 Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 O-O-O Bc8-d7 Rd1-e1 O-O-O Ne3-c4 Bd7-e6 Nc4-e5
Nf4-g6 Ne5xf7 Be6xf7 Bd2-g5) -1.17/27 9} 3. exd5 {(e4xd5 c6xd5 Nf1-e3 f7-f5
Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-d3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3
O-O O-O Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 f2-f4 Be5-c7 Ne3-d5 Bd7-c6 Nd5xc7 Qf7xc7 c2-c3
Nd8-e6 Bc1-e3 Qc7-f7 Bb1-c2 Ra8-d8 Qd3-e2 Rf8-e8) +1.68/25 7} cxd5 {(c6xd5
Nf1-e3 f7-f5 Qd1-f3 e7-e6 Qf3-e2 Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6 Nd5-b4 O-O Ng1-f3
e6-e5 d4xe5 Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 O-O Rf8-e8 Qe2-f3 Nd8-c6 Nb4xc6 b7xc6
c2-c3 Bc8-a6 Rf1-d1 Be5xh2+ Kg1xh2 Ba6-e2) -1.13/24 7} 4. Ne3 {(Nf1-e3
f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+
Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 c2-c3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 O-O-O
Bb1-f5+ Kc8-b8 b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-g6 Ke1-f2 Bc6-b7 Bc1-a3 Rh8-e8 Nd2-e4
Ng6-h4) +1.73/26 6} f5 {(f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7
Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 Ng1-f3 e5xd4 O-O Nf8-e6 Rf1-e1
Bb8-c7 Bc1-d2 O-O-O c2-c3 Nf7-g5 Nc4-e5 Ng5xf3+ Ne5xf3 g7-g5 c3xd4 g5-g4
Nf3-e5 Ne6xd4) -1.42/26 14} 5. Qf3 {(Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5
Nc4-a3 Bb5-c6 Ne2xf4 Bb8xf4 Bc1xf4 e7-e5 Bf4-g3 Bc6xg2 Rh1-g1 Bg2-f3 Ke1-d2
Nf8-e6 d4xe5 O-O-O+ Kd2-c3 Rh8-e8) +1.69/24 6} Qf7 {(Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6
h2-h4 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 Nd5xe7 Qf7xe7 Qf3-e2 e5xd4 a2-a3 Bc8-e6 Ng1-f3
Be6-c4 Qe2xe7+ Ke8xe7 Nf3xd4 Ke7-f6 Bb1-a2 Rh8-e8+ Ke1-d1 Bc4xa2 Ra1xa2
a7-a5 b2-b3 Bb8-e5 Rh1-e1 Nd8-c6 Nd4xc6 b7xc6) -1.32/27 25} 6. Qxd5
{(Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5
h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 c2-c3 Bb5-c6 O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 O-O
d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Ne2xf4 Ng6xf4 Bc1xf4 Ne5xc4 Bf4xb8 Ra8xb8 b3xc4 Rb8-d8 Bb1-e4
Rd8-d2 Be4xc6 b7xc6 Re1-f1 a7-a5 a2-a4) +1.66/24 4} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5
O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 Bc6xf3 g2xf3 Ng6-h4 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Kg1-f1 h7-h5 b2-b3 g5-g4
Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7 Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Bc1xf4 Kb7-c8 f3xg4 h5xg4 Re7xc7+ Kc8xc7
Nc4xd6) -1.22/27 6} 7. Qb5+ {(Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bb5xc4 b3xc4
Bb8xe5 c2-c3 f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-d4 Nf8-e6 Nd4xe6 Be5xc3+ Bc1-d2 Bc3xa1
Ne6-c7+ Ke8-e7 Nc7xa8 Rh8xa8 Bb1xh7 Nf7-e5 Bh7-e4 Ke7-d6 O-O) +1.89/25 6}
Bd7 {(Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4
h7-h6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Rh1xh8 Nf7xh8 c2-c3 Nh8-f7 b2-b3 O-O-O Bc1-a3 g5-g4
Bb1-c2 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-e6 O-O-O Ne6-g5 Ba3xe7 Rd8-e8 Be7xg5 Nf7xg5 Bc2-d3
f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-g3 Bc7xg3 f2xg3 f3-f2) -1.30/29 7} 8. Qb3 {(Qb5-b3
f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 e5xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 Ke1-f2 Rf8-d8 Bd2-c3 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d2 Bc7-b6 Rh1-e1
Nf7-d6) +1.76/27 4} f4 {(f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5
h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O a2-a4 e7-e5
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 Be4-d5 Rg8-g7 O-O-O e5-e4 Rd1-e1 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Bc7xd6 Ne2-g1
Bd7-f5 c3-c4 Ng6-h4 c4-c5) -1.10/28 6} 9. Qxf7+ {(Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4
Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 Ne6xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bb1-d3 b7-b5 Nc4-a3 a7-a6 Na3-c2 Nf7-g5 Bc1-a3 Rf8-e8+ Ke1-f2
Ng5-e6 Ra1-d1 Bb8-a7 Ba3-b2 Ra8-d8 Rh1-e1 Bd5-b7) +1.81/22 4} Nxf7 {(Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4
O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 a2-a4 e7-e5 b2-b3 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Rg8-e8 f2-f3 Ng6-e5 Nc4xe5
Nf7xe5 O-O-O Ne5-g4 Rd1-f1) -1.17/28 6} 10. Nc4 {(Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3
Bb8-c7 h2-h4 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d6+ Nf7xd6 e5xd6 Bc7xd6 c2-c3 O-O-O
Bc1-d2 Bd6-c7 Bb1-c2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O Nd7-c5 Nf3-d4 Bd5xg2 Rh1-g1 f4-f3 Rg1-e1
Kc8-b8) +1.77/24 4} Bc7 {(Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5 O-O Bc6xf3 g2xf3
Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Rf1-e1 Ng6-h4 Kg1-f1 h7-h5 a2-a4 g5-g4 Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7
Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Rd8xd6 Bc1xf4 Rd6-c6 f3xg4 h5xg4 d4-d5 Rc6-c4 Bf4-e5
Rh8-h5 Be5xc7 Rc4xc7 d5-d6) -1.31/28 16} 11. Ne2 {(Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf7-d6 Be4-c2
Bd7-f5 Ke1-d1 Nf8-g6 Bc1-a3 Rg8-h8 Rh1-g1 e7-e6 Ba3xd6 Rd8xd6 Bc2xf5 e6xf5
a2-a4 b5-b4 c3xb4 g5-g4 Kd1-c2 Rh8-e8) +1.78/26 9} g5 {(g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-d3 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 O-O-O Bc1-d2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O
g5-g4 Ne2xf4 g4xf3 Nf4-g6 Rg8xg6 Bd3xg6 f3xg2 Rh1-g1 Nf7-d6 Nc4-e3 Bc6-f3
Ne3xg2 Bf3xd1 Rg1xd1 e7-e5 Ng2-h4 e5xd4 c3xd4) -1.08/27 10} 12. h4 {(h2-h4
h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 Bc1-d2 e7-e5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 f2-f3
Kc8-b8 Bd3-f5 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-g6 Nc4xe5 Nf7xe5 d4xe5 Ng6-h4 Bf5-g4 Nh4xg2
e5-e6 Bc7-b6 Ne2-d4 Bb6xd4) +1.82/25 4} h6 {(h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 a2-a4 O-O-O
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Rh1-h7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ e7xd6 f2-f3
Ng6-h4 Ke1-f2 Bd7-f5 Be4xf5+ Nh4xf5 Bc1-d2 Re8-e6 Ra1-e1 Rg8-e8 Ne2-c1
Re6xe1 Bd2xe1 Bc7-a5 Be1-d2 Nf5-e3 Bd2xe3) -1.16/27 6} 13. c3 {(c2-c3
Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 e7-e5 Bc1-d2 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 Bd3-f5+ Kc8-b8
f2-f3 Nf8-g6 d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Nc4xe5 Bc7xe5 Bf5-e6 Rg8-g7 Ne2-d4 Be5xd4 c3xd4
Bc6-d5 Be6xd5 Rd8xd5 Rh1-h5 Rg7-c7+ Kc1-b1 Rc7-d7 Bd2-c3 Ng6-h4 Rd1-d2
Kb8-c7 Rd2-e2 b7-b6 Kb1-c1 Kc7-b7) +1.84/25 5} Rg8 {(Rh8-g8 b2-b3 O-O-O
a2-a4 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Bc1-d2 Ng6-h4 g2-g3 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+
e7xd6 Be4-d5 f4xg3 f2xg3 Bd7-g4 O-O-O Bg4xe2 Bd5xg8 Be2xd1 Kc1xd1 Re8xg8
g3xh4 g5xh4 Rh1xh4 b7-b6) -1.13/25 7} *[/pgn]
Starting with asymmetrical positions does feel a bit weird to a human player, but that is a necessary consequence of avoiding the drawishness of symmetry. Either we start with symmetrical positions that are a near-certain draw at 3500 level, or we start with somewhat weird asymmetrical positions that are not drawish. Note that this is not just an issue for engines, since human correspondence play, also assisted by engines, is at that level where only asymmetric positions offer real chances of a decisive result. For over-the-board human play, chess960/FRC is still viable, as the draw percentage (at long time limits and top level) is high but not excessive.
I realized that engines that are at level near to 3500 with the standard Chess position when they start with the White pieces are only losing 30% of the times. We are reaching the point in the near future once engines reach 3800 level with symmetrical positions they will no longer lose a single game of chess. https://tcec-chess.com/
lkaufman
Posts: 6224
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: Chess324

Post by lkaufman »

Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:45 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:52 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:20 pm It seems weir or strange after human are used to play symmetrical position and suddenly have to play asymmetrical positions in some cases, but for Engines it does NOT matter at all, some of these positions have a slight advantage for White and some for Black :roll:
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.08.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Berserk-9-x64-avx2-pext"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[ECO "Shuffl"]
[Opening "e Chess"]
[BlackElo "3535"]
[Time "09:53:39"]
[WhiteElo "3550"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rbbnknqr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RBBQKNNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "7"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]


1. e4 {(e2-e4 d7-d6 Ng1-e2 a7-a6 c2-c3 Bb8-a7 d2-d4 e7-e5 Bc1-e3 Nf8-g6
Nf1-g3 h7-h5 Ng3-f5 h5-h4 h2-h3 Nd8-e6 Qd1-d2 Bc8-d7 O-O f7-f6 b2-b4 Qg8-f7
a2-a4 O-O-O) +1.60/22 5} c6 {(c7-c6 d2-d4 d7-d5 c2-c3 d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5
Be4-d3 Nf8-g6 h2-h4 Qg8-e6+ Qd1-e2 Qe6xe2+ Ng1xe2 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 d4xe5
Bb8xe5 Nf1-h2 Be5-c7 h5-h6 g7-g6 O-O Nd8-e6 Rf1-e1 Bc8-d7 Ne2-d4 Ne6xd4
c3xd4) -1.19/25 7} 2. d4 {(d2-d4 g7-g5 c2-c3 h7-h5 a2-a4 h5-h4 Nf1-e3
Bb8-c7 a4-a5 Nd8-e6 Ng1-e2 Ne6-f4 O-O d7-d6 Kg1-h1 Nf4xe2 Qd1xe2 Nf8-g6
h2-h3 Bc8-d7 Ne3-f5 f7-f6 Rf1-e1 O-O-O a5-a6) +1.56/23 9} d5 {(d7-d5 c2-c3
d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5 Be4-c2 Qg8-e6+ Nf1-e3 Qe6-f6 Qd1-e2 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3 Ng6-f4
Qe2-f1 Nd8-f7 Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 O-O-O Bc8-d7 Rd1-e1 O-O-O Ne3-c4 Bd7-e6 Nc4-e5
Nf4-g6 Ne5xf7 Be6xf7 Bd2-g5) -1.17/27 9} 3. exd5 {(e4xd5 c6xd5 Nf1-e3 f7-f5
Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-d3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3
O-O O-O Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 f2-f4 Be5-c7 Ne3-d5 Bd7-c6 Nd5xc7 Qf7xc7 c2-c3
Nd8-e6 Bc1-e3 Qc7-f7 Bb1-c2 Ra8-d8 Qd3-e2 Rf8-e8) +1.68/25 7} cxd5 {(c6xd5
Nf1-e3 f7-f5 Qd1-f3 e7-e6 Qf3-e2 Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6 Nd5-b4 O-O Ng1-f3
e6-e5 d4xe5 Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 O-O Rf8-e8 Qe2-f3 Nd8-c6 Nb4xc6 b7xc6
c2-c3 Bc8-a6 Rf1-d1 Be5xh2+ Kg1xh2 Ba6-e2) -1.13/24 7} 4. Ne3 {(Nf1-e3
f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+
Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 c2-c3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 O-O-O
Bb1-f5+ Kc8-b8 b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-g6 Ke1-f2 Bc6-b7 Bc1-a3 Rh8-e8 Nd2-e4
Ng6-h4) +1.73/26 6} f5 {(f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7
Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 Ng1-f3 e5xd4 O-O Nf8-e6 Rf1-e1
Bb8-c7 Bc1-d2 O-O-O c2-c3 Nf7-g5 Nc4-e5 Ng5xf3+ Ne5xf3 g7-g5 c3xd4 g5-g4
Nf3-e5 Ne6xd4) -1.42/26 14} 5. Qf3 {(Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5
Nc4-a3 Bb5-c6 Ne2xf4 Bb8xf4 Bc1xf4 e7-e5 Bf4-g3 Bc6xg2 Rh1-g1 Bg2-f3 Ke1-d2
Nf8-e6 d4xe5 O-O-O+ Kd2-c3 Rh8-e8) +1.69/24 6} Qf7 {(Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6
h2-h4 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 Nd5xe7 Qf7xe7 Qf3-e2 e5xd4 a2-a3 Bc8-e6 Ng1-f3
Be6-c4 Qe2xe7+ Ke8xe7 Nf3xd4 Ke7-f6 Bb1-a2 Rh8-e8+ Ke1-d1 Bc4xa2 Ra1xa2
a7-a5 b2-b3 Bb8-e5 Rh1-e1 Nd8-c6 Nd4xc6 b7xc6) -1.32/27 25} 6. Qxd5
{(Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5
h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 c2-c3 Bb5-c6 O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 O-O
d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Ne2xf4 Ng6xf4 Bc1xf4 Ne5xc4 Bf4xb8 Ra8xb8 b3xc4 Rb8-d8 Bb1-e4
Rd8-d2 Be4xc6 b7xc6 Re1-f1 a7-a5 a2-a4) +1.66/24 4} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5
O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 Bc6xf3 g2xf3 Ng6-h4 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Kg1-f1 h7-h5 b2-b3 g5-g4
Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7 Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Bc1xf4 Kb7-c8 f3xg4 h5xg4 Re7xc7+ Kc8xc7
Nc4xd6) -1.22/27 6} 7. Qb5+ {(Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bb5xc4 b3xc4
Bb8xe5 c2-c3 f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-d4 Nf8-e6 Nd4xe6 Be5xc3+ Bc1-d2 Bc3xa1
Ne6-c7+ Ke8-e7 Nc7xa8 Rh8xa8 Bb1xh7 Nf7-e5 Bh7-e4 Ke7-d6 O-O) +1.89/25 6}
Bd7 {(Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4
h7-h6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Rh1xh8 Nf7xh8 c2-c3 Nh8-f7 b2-b3 O-O-O Bc1-a3 g5-g4
Bb1-c2 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-e6 O-O-O Ne6-g5 Ba3xe7 Rd8-e8 Be7xg5 Nf7xg5 Bc2-d3
f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-g3 Bc7xg3 f2xg3 f3-f2) -1.30/29 7} 8. Qb3 {(Qb5-b3
f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 e5xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 Ke1-f2 Rf8-d8 Bd2-c3 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d2 Bc7-b6 Rh1-e1
Nf7-d6) +1.76/27 4} f4 {(f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5
h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O a2-a4 e7-e5
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 Be4-d5 Rg8-g7 O-O-O e5-e4 Rd1-e1 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Bc7xd6 Ne2-g1
Bd7-f5 c3-c4 Ng6-h4 c4-c5) -1.10/28 6} 9. Qxf7+ {(Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4
Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 Ne6xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bb1-d3 b7-b5 Nc4-a3 a7-a6 Na3-c2 Nf7-g5 Bc1-a3 Rf8-e8+ Ke1-f2
Ng5-e6 Ra1-d1 Bb8-a7 Ba3-b2 Ra8-d8 Rh1-e1 Bd5-b7) +1.81/22 4} Nxf7 {(Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4
O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 a2-a4 e7-e5 b2-b3 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Rg8-e8 f2-f3 Ng6-e5 Nc4xe5
Nf7xe5 O-O-O Ne5-g4 Rd1-f1) -1.17/28 6} 10. Nc4 {(Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3
Bb8-c7 h2-h4 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d6+ Nf7xd6 e5xd6 Bc7xd6 c2-c3 O-O-O
Bc1-d2 Bd6-c7 Bb1-c2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O Nd7-c5 Nf3-d4 Bd5xg2 Rh1-g1 f4-f3 Rg1-e1
Kc8-b8) +1.77/24 4} Bc7 {(Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5 O-O Bc6xf3 g2xf3
Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Rf1-e1 Ng6-h4 Kg1-f1 h7-h5 a2-a4 g5-g4 Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7
Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Rd8xd6 Bc1xf4 Rd6-c6 f3xg4 h5xg4 d4-d5 Rc6-c4 Bf4-e5
Rh8-h5 Be5xc7 Rc4xc7 d5-d6) -1.31/28 16} 11. Ne2 {(Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf7-d6 Be4-c2
Bd7-f5 Ke1-d1 Nf8-g6 Bc1-a3 Rg8-h8 Rh1-g1 e7-e6 Ba3xd6 Rd8xd6 Bc2xf5 e6xf5
a2-a4 b5-b4 c3xb4 g5-g4 Kd1-c2 Rh8-e8) +1.78/26 9} g5 {(g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-d3 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 O-O-O Bc1-d2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O
g5-g4 Ne2xf4 g4xf3 Nf4-g6 Rg8xg6 Bd3xg6 f3xg2 Rh1-g1 Nf7-d6 Nc4-e3 Bc6-f3
Ne3xg2 Bf3xd1 Rg1xd1 e7-e5 Ng2-h4 e5xd4 c3xd4) -1.08/27 10} 12. h4 {(h2-h4
h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 Bc1-d2 e7-e5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 f2-f3
Kc8-b8 Bd3-f5 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-g6 Nc4xe5 Nf7xe5 d4xe5 Ng6-h4 Bf5-g4 Nh4xg2
e5-e6 Bc7-b6 Ne2-d4 Bb6xd4) +1.82/25 4} h6 {(h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 a2-a4 O-O-O
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Rh1-h7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ e7xd6 f2-f3
Ng6-h4 Ke1-f2 Bd7-f5 Be4xf5+ Nh4xf5 Bc1-d2 Re8-e6 Ra1-e1 Rg8-e8 Ne2-c1
Re6xe1 Bd2xe1 Bc7-a5 Be1-d2 Nf5-e3 Bd2xe3) -1.16/27 6} 13. c3 {(c2-c3
Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 e7-e5 Bc1-d2 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 Bd3-f5+ Kc8-b8
f2-f3 Nf8-g6 d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Nc4xe5 Bc7xe5 Bf5-e6 Rg8-g7 Ne2-d4 Be5xd4 c3xd4
Bc6-d5 Be6xd5 Rd8xd5 Rh1-h5 Rg7-c7+ Kc1-b1 Rc7-d7 Bd2-c3 Ng6-h4 Rd1-d2
Kb8-c7 Rd2-e2 b7-b6 Kb1-c1 Kc7-b7) +1.84/25 5} Rg8 {(Rh8-g8 b2-b3 O-O-O
a2-a4 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Bc1-d2 Ng6-h4 g2-g3 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+
e7xd6 Be4-d5 f4xg3 f2xg3 Bd7-g4 O-O-O Bg4xe2 Bd5xg8 Be2xd1 Kc1xd1 Re8xg8
g3xh4 g5xh4 Rh1xh4 b7-b6) -1.13/25 7} *[/pgn]
Starting with asymmetrical positions does feel a bit weird to a human player, but that is a necessary consequence of avoiding the drawishness of symmetry. Either we start with symmetrical positions that are a near-certain draw at 3500 level, or we start with somewhat weird asymmetrical positions that are not drawish. Note that this is not just an issue for engines, since human correspondence play, also assisted by engines, is at that level where only asymmetric positions offer real chances of a decisive result. For over-the-board human play, chess960/FRC is still viable, as the draw percentage (at long time limits and top level) is high but not excessive.
I realized that engines that are at level near to 3500 with the standard Chess position when they start with the White pieces are only losing 30% of the times. We are reaching the point in the near future once engines reach 3800 level with symmetrical positions they will no longer lose a single game of chess. https://tcec-chess.com/
Probably we're already there, with long enough time limits and large enough core counts, with the top engines.
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Chess324

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:50 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:45 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:52 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:20 pm It seems weir or strange after human are used to play symmetrical position and suddenly have to play asymmetrical positions in some cases, but for Engines it does NOT matter at all, some of these positions have a slight advantage for White and some for Black :roll:
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.08.13"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Berserk-9-x64-avx2-pext"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[ECO "Shuffl"]
[Opening "e Chess"]
[BlackElo "3535"]
[Time "09:53:39"]
[WhiteElo "3550"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rbbnknqr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RBBQKNNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "7"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]


1. e4 {(e2-e4 d7-d6 Ng1-e2 a7-a6 c2-c3 Bb8-a7 d2-d4 e7-e5 Bc1-e3 Nf8-g6
Nf1-g3 h7-h5 Ng3-f5 h5-h4 h2-h3 Nd8-e6 Qd1-d2 Bc8-d7 O-O f7-f6 b2-b4 Qg8-f7
a2-a4 O-O-O) +1.60/22 5} c6 {(c7-c6 d2-d4 d7-d5 c2-c3 d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5
Be4-d3 Nf8-g6 h2-h4 Qg8-e6+ Qd1-e2 Qe6xe2+ Ng1xe2 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 d4xe5
Bb8xe5 Nf1-h2 Be5-c7 h5-h6 g7-g6 O-O Nd8-e6 Rf1-e1 Bc8-d7 Ne2-d4 Ne6xd4
c3xd4) -1.19/25 7} 2. d4 {(d2-d4 g7-g5 c2-c3 h7-h5 a2-a4 h5-h4 Nf1-e3
Bb8-c7 a4-a5 Nd8-e6 Ng1-e2 Ne6-f4 O-O d7-d6 Kg1-h1 Nf4xe2 Qd1xe2 Nf8-g6
h2-h3 Bc8-d7 Ne3-f5 f7-f6 Rf1-e1 O-O-O a5-a6) +1.56/23 9} d5 {(d7-d5 c2-c3
d5xe4 Bb1xe4 f7-f5 Be4-c2 Qg8-e6+ Nf1-e3 Qe6-f6 Qd1-e2 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3 Ng6-f4
Qe2-f1 Nd8-f7 Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 O-O-O Bc8-d7 Rd1-e1 O-O-O Ne3-c4 Bd7-e6 Nc4-e5
Nf4-g6 Ne5xf7 Be6xf7 Bd2-g5) -1.17/27 9} 3. exd5 {(e4xd5 c6xd5 Nf1-e3 f7-f5
Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-d3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Nf8-g6 Ng1-f3
O-O O-O Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 f2-f4 Be5-c7 Ne3-d5 Bd7-c6 Nd5xc7 Qf7xc7 c2-c3
Nd8-e6 Bc1-e3 Qc7-f7 Bb1-c2 Ra8-d8 Qd3-e2 Rf8-e8) +1.68/25 7} cxd5 {(c6xd5
Nf1-e3 f7-f5 Qd1-f3 e7-e6 Qf3-e2 Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6 Nd5-b4 O-O Ng1-f3
e6-e5 d4xe5 Ng6xe5 Nf3xe5 Bb8xe5 O-O Rf8-e8 Qe2-f3 Nd8-c6 Nb4xc6 b7xc6
c2-c3 Bc8-a6 Rf1-d1 Be5xh2+ Kg1xh2 Ba6-e2) -1.13/24 7} 4. Ne3 {(Nf1-e3
f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+
Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 c2-c3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 O-O-O
Bb1-f5+ Kc8-b8 b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-g6 Ke1-f2 Bc6-b7 Bc1-a3 Rh8-e8 Nd2-e4
Ng6-h4) +1.73/26 6} f5 {(f7-f5 Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7
Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 e7-e5 Ng1-f3 e5xd4 O-O Nf8-e6 Rf1-e1
Bb8-c7 Bc1-d2 O-O-O c2-c3 Nf7-g5 Nc4-e5 Ng5xf3+ Ne5xf3 g7-g5 c3xd4 g5-g4
Nf3-e5 Ne6xd4) -1.42/26 14} 5. Qf3 {(Qd1-f3 Qg8-f7 Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5
Nc4-a3 Bb5-c6 Ne2xf4 Bb8xf4 Bc1xf4 e7-e5 Bf4-g3 Bc6xg2 Rh1-g1 Bg2-f3 Ke1-d2
Nf8-e6 d4xe5 O-O-O+ Kd2-c3 Rh8-e8) +1.69/24 6} Qf7 {(Qg8-f7 Ne3xd5 Nf8-g6
h2-h4 e7-e5 h4-h5 Ng6-e7 Nd5xe7 Qf7xe7 Qf3-e2 e5xd4 a2-a3 Bc8-e6 Ng1-f3
Be6-c4 Qe2xe7+ Ke8xe7 Nf3xd4 Ke7-f6 Bb1-a2 Rh8-e8+ Ke1-d1 Bc4xa2 Ra1xa2
a7-a5 b2-b3 Bb8-e5 Rh1-e1 Nd8-c6 Nd4xc6 b7xc6) -1.32/27 25} 6. Qxd5
{(Qf3xd5 Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 g7-g5
h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 c2-c3 Bb5-c6 O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 O-O
d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Ne2xf4 Ng6xf4 Bc1xf4 Ne5xc4 Bf4xb8 Ra8xb8 b3xc4 Rb8-d8 Bb1-e4
Rd8-d2 Be4xc6 b7xc6 Re1-f1 a7-a5 a2-a4) +1.66/24 4} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Qd5-b5+
Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5
O-O Nf8-g6 Rf1-e1 Bc6xf3 g2xf3 Ng6-h4 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Kg1-f1 h7-h5 b2-b3 g5-g4
Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7 Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Bc1xf4 Kb7-c8 f3xg4 h5xg4 Re7xc7+ Kc8xc7
Nc4xd6) -1.22/27 6} 7. Qb5+ {(Qd5-b5+ Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 g7-g5 h2-h4 g5-g4 Ng1-e2 Bd7-b5 b2-b3 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bb5xc4 b3xc4
Bb8xe5 c2-c3 f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-d4 Nf8-e6 Nd4xe6 Be5xc3+ Bc1-d2 Bc3xa1
Ne6-c7+ Ke8-e7 Nc7xa8 Rh8xa8 Bb1xh7 Nf7-e5 Bh7-e4 Ke7-d6 O-O) +1.89/25 6}
Bd7 {(Be6-d7 Qb5-b3 f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4
h7-h6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Rh1xh8 Nf7xh8 c2-c3 Nh8-f7 b2-b3 O-O-O Bc1-a3 g5-g4
Bb1-c2 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf8-e6 O-O-O Ne6-g5 Ba3xe7 Rd8-e8 Be7xg5 Nf7xg5 Bc2-d3
f4-f3 g2xf3 g4xf3 Ne2-g3 Bc7xg3 f2xg3 f3-f2) -1.30/29 7} 8. Qb3 {(Qb5-b3
f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 e5xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bc1-d2 Bb8-c7 Ke1-f2 Rf8-d8 Bd2-c3 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d2 Bc7-b6 Rh1-e1
Nf7-d6) +1.76/27 4} f4 {(f5-f4 Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5
h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O a2-a4 e7-e5
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 Be4-d5 Rg8-g7 O-O-O e5-e4 Rd1-e1 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Bc7xd6 Ne2-g1
Bd7-f5 c3-c4 Ng6-h4 c4-c5) -1.10/28 6} 9. Qxf7+ {(Qb3xf7+ Nd8xf7 Ne3-c4
Bd7-c6 f2-f3 e7-e5 Ng1-e2 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-e6 c2-c3 Ne6xd4
c3xd4 O-O Bb1-d3 b7-b5 Nc4-a3 a7-a6 Na3-c2 Nf7-g5 Bc1-a3 Rf8-e8+ Ke1-f2
Ng5-e6 Ra1-d1 Bb8-a7 Ba3-b2 Ra8-d8 Rh1-e1 Bd5-b7) +1.81/22 4} Nxf7 {(Nd8xf7
Ne3-c4 Bb8-c7 Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bc1-d2 Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4
O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 a2-a4 e7-e5 b2-b3 e5xd4 Ne2xd4 Rg8-e8 f2-f3 Ng6-e5 Nc4xe5
Nf7xe5 O-O-O Ne5-g4 Rd1-f1) -1.17/28 6} 10. Nc4 {(Ne3-c4 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3
Bb8-c7 h2-h4 e7-e5 d4xe5 Bc6-d5 Nc4-d6+ Nf7xd6 e5xd6 Bc7xd6 c2-c3 O-O-O
Bc1-d2 Bd6-c7 Bb1-c2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O Nd7-c5 Nf3-d4 Bd5xg2 Rh1-g1 f4-f3 Rg1-e1
Kc8-b8) +1.77/24 4} Bc7 {(Bb8-c7 c2-c3 Bd7-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5 O-O Bc6xf3 g2xf3
Nf8-g6 Bb1-e4 O-O-O Rf1-e1 Ng6-h4 Kg1-f1 h7-h5 a2-a4 g5-g4 Be4xb7+ Kc8xb7
Re1xe7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ Rd8xd6 Bc1xf4 Rd6-c6 f3xg4 h5xg4 d4-d5 Rc6-c4 Bf4-e5
Rh8-h5 Be5xc7 Rc4xc7 d5-d6) -1.31/28 16} 11. Ne2 {(Ng1-e2 g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 O-O-O b2-b3 b7-b5 Nc4-d2 Nf7-d6 Be4-c2
Bd7-f5 Ke1-d1 Nf8-g6 Bc1-a3 Rg8-h8 Rh1-g1 e7-e6 Ba3xd6 Rd8xd6 Bc2xf5 e6xf5
a2-a4 b5-b4 c3xb4 g5-g4 Kd1-c2 Rh8-e8) +1.78/26 9} g5 {(g7-g5 h2-h4 h7-h6
c2-c3 Rh8-g8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-d3 Bd7-c6 f2-f3 O-O-O Bc1-d2 Nf8-d7 O-O-O
g5-g4 Ne2xf4 g4xf3 Nf4-g6 Rg8xg6 Bd3xg6 f3xg2 Rh1-g1 Nf7-d6 Nc4-e3 Bc6-f3
Ne3xg2 Bf3xd1 Rg1xd1 e7-e5 Ng2-h4 e5xd4 c3xd4) -1.08/27 10} 12. h4 {(h2-h4
h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 Bc1-d2 e7-e5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 f2-f3
Kc8-b8 Bd3-f5 Bc6-d5 b2-b3 Nf8-g6 Nc4xe5 Nf7xe5 d4xe5 Ng6-h4 Bf5-g4 Nh4xg2
e5-e6 Bc7-b6 Ne2-d4 Bb6xd4) +1.82/25 4} h6 {(h7-h6 c2-c3 Rh8-g8 a2-a4 O-O-O
b2-b3 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Rh1-h7 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+ e7xd6 f2-f3
Ng6-h4 Ke1-f2 Bd7-f5 Be4xf5+ Nh4xf5 Bc1-d2 Re8-e6 Ra1-e1 Rg8-e8 Ne2-c1
Re6xe1 Bd2xe1 Bc7-a5 Be1-d2 Nf5-e3 Bd2xe3) -1.16/27 6} 13. c3 {(c2-c3
Rh8-g8 Bb1-d3 e7-e5 Bc1-d2 O-O-O h4xg5 h6xg5 O-O-O Bd7-c6 Bd3-f5+ Kc8-b8
f2-f3 Nf8-g6 d4xe5 Nf7xe5 Nc4xe5 Bc7xe5 Bf5-e6 Rg8-g7 Ne2-d4 Be5xd4 c3xd4
Bc6-d5 Be6xd5 Rd8xd5 Rh1-h5 Rg7-c7+ Kc1-b1 Rc7-d7 Bd2-c3 Ng6-h4 Rd1-d2
Kb8-c7 Rd2-e2 b7-b6 Kb1-c1 Kc7-b7) +1.84/25 5} Rg8 {(Rh8-g8 b2-b3 O-O-O
a2-a4 Rd8-e8 h4xg5 h6xg5 Bb1-e4 Nf8-g6 Bc1-d2 Ng6-h4 g2-g3 Nf7-d6 Nc4xd6+
e7xd6 Be4-d5 f4xg3 f2xg3 Bd7-g4 O-O-O Bg4xe2 Bd5xg8 Be2xd1 Kc1xd1 Re8xg8
g3xh4 g5xh4 Rh1xh4 b7-b6) -1.13/25 7} *[/pgn]
Starting with asymmetrical positions does feel a bit weird to a human player, but that is a necessary consequence of avoiding the drawishness of symmetry. Either we start with symmetrical positions that are a near-certain draw at 3500 level, or we start with somewhat weird asymmetrical positions that are not drawish. Note that this is not just an issue for engines, since human correspondence play, also assisted by engines, is at that level where only asymmetric positions offer real chances of a decisive result. For over-the-board human play, chess960/FRC is still viable, as the draw percentage (at long time limits and top level) is high but not excessive.
I realized that engines that are at level near to 3500 with the standard Chess position when they start with the White pieces are only losing 30% of the times. We are reaching the point in the near future once engines reach 3800 level with symmetrical positions they will no longer lose a single game of chess. https://tcec-chess.com/
Probably we're already there, with long enough time limits and large enough core counts, with the top engines.
Is 60 minutes per move sufficient time for Komodo Dragon 3.1 Not to lose any game playing with the White pieces and a good opening book , and using TCEC Computer with 104 threads?
Lazy_Frank
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Re: Chess324

Post by Lazy_Frank »

lkaufman wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:34 pm
Lazy_Frank wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:24 am Sounds very promising.
Thanks, Larry, definitive this chess variant need to be given a chance.

Speaking of double Fisher random chess (DFRC).

It is very rich in openings count, its also do not request book to differentiate engines.
Main problem is many DFRC openings exceeds the draw range.
I am currently try to clear DFRC from "busted" openings.
chess324 is a subset of DFRC, but has no positions clearly beyond the draw range, and doesn't require the special rules of castling. For some purposes there may be a need for more than the 648 game matches possible with chess324, so there may still be a reason to continue to explore DFRC, but for the vast majority of uses 648 games should be enough between two particular opponents.
I did re-scoring of all 324-chess positions.
Results here:
Chessqueen
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Re: Chess324

Post by Chessqueen »

Modern Times wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:49 pm
lkaufman wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:46 pm
Modern Times wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:40 pm
lkaufman wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:34 pm chess324 is a subset of DFRC, but has no positions clearly beyond the draw range, and doesn't require the special rules of castling. For some purposes there may be a need for more than the 648 game matches possible with chess324, so there may still be a reason to continue to explore DFRC, but for the vast majority of uses 648 games should be enough between two particular opponents.
So engines do not have to have FRC support to use these openings ? You start a standard chess tournament and the GUI and engines will understand ?
Yes, that's right! They are just alternate start positions, all standard rules of chess still apply. Of course they are not legal start positions (except one), since they cannot be created by a sequence of legal moves from the normal start position.
OK, I may try a round-robin tournament of a few top engines and see how it is. After I get a pgn of the 324 positions that is.
I do NOT expect any other engines beside Stockfish, Dragon 3.1 or LCO to Win ==> ... sp=sharing
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pohl4711
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Re: Chess324

Post by pohl4711 »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:50 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:45 pm
I realized that engines that are at level near to 3500 with the standard Chess position when they start with the White pieces are only losing 30% of the times. We are reaching the point in the near future once engines reach 3800 level with symmetrical positions they will no longer lose a single game of chess. https://tcec-chess.com/
Probably we're already there, with long enough time limits and large enough core counts, with the top engines.
And that is the reason, why there is no alternative to UHO-openings (perhaps except my other AntiDraw-openings), as suggested in the dkappe-UHO-troll-Thread here on talkchess. Blaming UHO openings "ugly" means (by the way) blaming strong human players, IMs, GMs, SuperGMs playing ugly chess, because UHO V3, UHO 2021 and UHO 2022 - openings contain human played openings out of the Megabase, only, both players stronger than 2300 Elo).

https://www.sp-cc.de/uho_2022.htm

https://www.sp-cc.de/anti-draw-openings.htm
(This openings-sets collection contains 6 different openings concepts:
Drawkiller V5, No Black Short Castling V2 (NBSC), No Black Castling V2 (NBC), White One More Pawn V1 (WOMP), White One More Move V1 (WOMM) and Unbalanced Human Openings V3 (UHO). ) - So, a lot of interesting alternatives to UHO can be found here!
frcha
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Re: Chess324

Post by frcha »

When advocating for a chess variant, it is important we identify it as a variant and stop trying to impose it as “the way to play chess now’. The problem with chess variants is …..take a look at at chessvariants.org. – there are so many of them! I would suggest that this variant Chess324 be added there as well.
Shuffle chess variants have always been fascinating but I think many have overlooked the original intention of Fischer Random which is to completely remove or at least seriously hamper opening preparation.

Thus draw percentages is not the concern, neither is even white advantage or aesthetics. In fact, the original Fischer Random allows for such luck depending if one side gets the better side of a given position. Castling is a transposition move meaning as long as king is between two rooks – it can move to its bunker position on either b or g files.

This explanation of castling led to another chess variant King to Bunker Leap which goes the other extreme of Chess324 – adding more positions AND adding another king safety move. Like FRC – King to Bunker Leap is primarily for human opponents to play completely without opening preparation.
Now in chess324, there are enough opening positions to limit opening preparation and still retain the original castling specification with nicer looking positions. However, like all shuffle chess variants the positions do seem weird for average chess players who see no need to transition to the new game.

Still, it is a step in the right direction if it would move players away from the “preparation” mentality.

I would propose that chess software become more flexible to allow for Fischer Random, Shuffle Chess and maybe even King to Bunker Leap.
The Zillions software was excellent in this regard and allowed for so many chess variants to be added –
Below is link to mentioned variant King to Bunker Leap on Zillions.
https://www.zillions-of-games.com/cgi-b ... ow;id=1771

By the way – is it possible to do scoring on all the shuffle chess positions without castling/special rules as was done for chess324?
Time
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Re: Chess324

Post by Time »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:17 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:46 am
lkaufman wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:44 pm
bnst wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:52 am Why reduce the number of possibilities making it easier to prepare openings.
I would say that the old proposition of Chess2880 where there is no castling and the only rule for the pieces is that the bishops must be on different colours is much better.
More possibilities and randomness, no special rules and any engine that can take a FEN input can play it.

I have for many years wondered why people are so hung up on castling that they even had to implement it in Chess960.

Best regards
anst
The point is not to reduce the number of possibilities, it is that the symmetrical positions such as the 2880 in chess2880 are too drawish when the opponents are (or use, as in correspondence play) top engines. Also chess324 is just much more like normal chess with normal castling rules. Of course I could dramatically increase the number of positions by letting the king be anywhere, forfeiting castling when not on e1 or e8, but then hundreds of the positions would be surely winning for one side or the other. It is just a lucky break that chess324 leads to many positions approaching the win/draw line, but probably none clearly/significantly beyond it. I doubt that any other simple rule will produce this desirable consequence.
Another possibility to increase the amount of positions, since 85% of the times castling is done on the side of the King 0-0 or King's side is to only have the King and Rook on the side of the King in its original position and the other Rook can be placed anywhere. But 324 positions is plenty for us humans to handle and it is 323 more positions than the standard chess position, therefore, it is perfect. No need to make more positions.
Probably if the queen's rook isn't fixed on its normal square, many of the positions will be winning for one side (mostly White). Also if the players can only castle short, it feels less like normal chess. I wouldn't mind increasing the number of positions if possible, but I don't think that there is any simple rule to accomplish this without allowing clearly winning positions. It is just good luck that we can get 324 positions this way without any being more favorable than the Grob is for Black. This is why it took so long to come up with this idea [emphasis added]; it wasn't obvious that without symmetry there wouldn't be obviously won positions. I think the main reason is that with rooks in the corners and not bishops, there are no positions where White can immediately threaten to win material with his first move. This is what keeps White's advantage down to an acceptable (i.e. not clearly winning) advantage.
I am thrilled that this suggestion has been published, and by such a creative and inspring computer chess expert as the above-quoted GM. I would assume, though, that Chess 324 has been on other peoples' minds before, at least I have my personal notes about the variant from around 2019-2020. I have a file named "324-sjakk.pgn" last edited 24.11.2019, and a description of it together with some other ideas in another document (20.01.2020).

I agree that this variant is in many respects superior to DFRC (a variant which I recently read somewhere was considered by Fischer and Su. Polgár), especially for the purpose which I imagined for it: correspondence or freestyle chess, where one wants to have a body of opening theory to build upon after a game is completed, rather than eliminate all opening theory completely. In addition, Chess 324, indeed looks much more like normal chess than DFRC and even FRC. I share the same assessment about castling feeling unnatural in FRC. Chess 324 also should be comptatible with GUIs which don't support DFRC, and even those which don't support FRC.

Thank you to H.G. Muller and Lazy Frank for compiling the position list and high-depth start position evaluations; I was using the TCEC administrator Aloril's complete depth 20 DFRC sheet in order to do the same manually, but obviously a 30+ depth list is much more reliable. For the above-mentioned purpose, I would assume, based on LF's list, that less than 50 positions will have a reasonably contested objective status among analysts, and that not a single position is winning for black.

An idea for generation process of a competitive game is that the server or middleman / third party receives a list from both players with the result they would want to play for in all 324 starting positions. From the ones where the results diverge, one position is chosen by random, so that it becomes an Armageddon game. If all 324 positions are evaluated in the same way, which can happen, if nothing else since it might be most reasonable to have the players lists published, since the information is in any case possible to read by a third party person (unless the server/organizer has some encryption scheme), pairs of games are played with positions chosen by random until one player wins a pair. Note that the time given to each player is a constant one, independent of the number of game pairs, so that a short time usage on the simple positions is incentivized.

A possible improvement of the above sketch would be to have each player only submit one position evaluation at the time in such a way that less information is shared with the opponent and/or a third party. With a client-side server implementation, this could be automized without a third party having to see the information. One possible way of exchanging game evaluations could be this: Let each player submit one position at a time with a corresponding result he wants to play for, and let this be done until a result is submitted which differs from a result submitted by the opponent at a previous or the same point in the sequence.

Another variant which I would love to see an engine for is Aloril's mobility chess (in the modified reset form), which has also been covered in the ICGA Journal. He has also made tablebases for it (for the original whole game mobility version), which will often be relevant even for r-mobility. Having done some initial opening analysis in it on my own (in addition to playing some endgames in the TCEC Discord chat), it seems that the possibility of perpetual checks, resulting in low G values, makes the game "positionally tactical" in a way somewhat resembling shogi. For players whose intuitions are limited to standard chess, custom engine assistance becomes more critical in this phase than in more simple endgames. The lack of engines should in itself not discourage people from playing the variant, but it seems that e.g. even an engine which evaluates perpetual checks as a win for the player giving the checks will help immensely if one is to play the game competetively as correspondence or freestyle chess.
(This last parapraph should not sidetrack the thread, but I merely mention it while speaking about variants aimed at solving the draw death at least for correspondence and freestyle chess, since this seems like a good moment to bring to GM Kaufman's attention the desire for e.g. the above-mentioned perpetual-detecting feature. See also the existing thread "Reset-Mobility Chess".)