Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

[AdminX]

If memory serves me correctly, I believe that GM Alireza Firouzja was banned from Chess.com because he was suspected of cheating in his early online appearance, they later reinstated his account when they realized he was the real deal.

[supersharp77]

Hans Niemann Admits He Was A "Cheater"

Hans Niemann Full St Louis interview

As many of you may have heard, Magnus Carlsen withdrew from the St. Louis Sinquefield Cup tournament today after losing to GM Hans Niemann yesterday. Although he didn't state a reason for withdrawal, he said it was not health-related and expressed a desire to play in future events at the St. Louis chess club, so it is pretty obvious that his reason was suspicion that his opponent had received computer help during the game. Hikaru Nakamura explicitly confirmed that he believed that this was Carlsen's reason for withdrawal, and also said that Niemann's post-game commentary of his game today did not sound like 2700 level commentary. I am not expressing an opinion on the issue or even asking for opinions here; I am posting here to ask those who are technologically knowledgeable how they would go about getting computer help in an event where the players are "wanded" for electronic devices, where spectators are barred (for Covid reasons), and where everyone is on camera during the games. It should be noted that today they implemented a 15 minute delay in coverage to make any cheating harder, but that was not in effect during the Carlsen vs Niemann game. Niemann supposedly had a 93% match with SF (first 3 moves I believe) vs 83% for Carlsen, which is of course just circumstantial evidence, he could just have been playing much better that day.

If memory serves me correctly, I believe that GM Alireza Firouzja was banned from Chess.com because he was suspected of cheating in his early online appearance, they later reinstated his account when they realized he was the real deal.

"I watched the Nakamura YouTube video and found it to be ridiculous, but also void of an actual accusation of cheating. When Nakamura is saying that no 2700 calculates this poorly, he is flat out wrong. I can also show positional mistakes from Nakamura that undermines the credibility of the playing strength of the former no. 2. Mistakes that Hans would simply not believe a GM had made. Because they are his strengths and Nakamura’s weaknesses."

I agree. Naka drew a lot of conjectures from people's responses, and he would blatantly accuse Hans of cheating or some suspicious way. It did NOT help that he has been caught before, but this was an OTB tourney. Some points that Naka made sounded valid, but there is more evidence that is needed before you rake a guy over the coals and destroy his reputation in the chess world. I also went over this game with engine assist, and I did not see flawless play from Hans. That's just my 2¢ worth.

Well Alot has happened on this "Chess Crisis"...aka "World Chess Scandal" in the past couple of days... So let me start from the beginning (Been watching htis thing mushroom out of control since Monday-Tuesday when Magnus withdrew from The St Louis Invitational Super GM....Now I was watching the day before (monday?) and was in the StLouisChessClub Livestream chat and my first question was "Who's Hans Niemann & How did he get an Invite to this Closed tourney over Giri or Gikesh Or Sam Shankland or Other Strong Players??" Lots of head scratching in the chat...Someone said he was the USA Junior Champion...Dunno..I myself had never seen or heard of this guy...EVER.... So The St Louis organizers & USCF (I assume) had given him a "wild card"... currently they say he's ranked 48th....The Guy seems to look the part of a Strong Player but is a "Type A" personality and has some strange and borderline disrespectful interviews online..."The Game Speaks For Itself"...etc...ect...I myself think the guy is smart..and self assured...probably not a nice guy and has admitted being a "Online Cheater" at some points in his life (he's 19 yrs old!) I don't recall him in the FIDE club cup a few months back...These Private Chess club types probably aren't going to accept a character like Hans Niemann coming into their clique and he has Magnus Carlsen, Hikaru Nakamura & Chess.com against him with all of their Social Media Power & Followers..and its difficult if not impossible to Fight Against all that Pressure....Hans May need a Lawyer at some point to continue his Chess Career...Sad But True...

[CornfedForever]

If memory serves me correctly, I believe that GM Alireza Firouzja was banned from Chess.com because he was suspected of cheating in his early online appearance, they later reinstated his account when they realized he was the real deal.

100% true.
That's why I said at one point that it is easier to catch 'cheaters' online than OTB...but also easier to snare people who really are not cheating.

Statistics...should largely be a branching off point towards truth, not taken as 'truth' itself (God...I read too many philosophy magazines...)

Have I missed something? Chess.com closed Hans' account just the other day (according to Hans) and of course it's nothing specifically to do with the incidents when he was 12 and 16 yrs old. Does chess.com have ANYTHING at all to do with the Siquefield Cup? I haven't seen it...don't think they are a sponsor. Just seems odd it would happen a day or so after Magnus left.

[Albert Silver]

Chess.com just bought all of Magnus's companies not two weeks ago. Magnus is in some ways a Chess.com asset now.

https://www.chess.com/news/view/chesscom-playmagnus

[dkappe]

In the Frankfurter Allgemeine (the NYT of Germany) the commentary is on Carlsen’s misbehavior. The title is “Auch Könige müssen Beweise vorlegen,” or “even kings must provide proof.”

How long can Carlsen hide in his silence?

[Chessqueen]

In the Frankfurter Allgemeine (the NYT of Germany) the commentary is on Carlsen’s misbehavior. The title is “Auch Könige müssen Beweise vorlegen,” or “even kings must provide proof.”

How long can Carlsen hide in his silence?

Lets find out who GM Hans really is and how active he has been since Sept 2020 ==> https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-carls ... ann-affair

[daniel71]

I have watched the videos and the games and I don't believe Niemann cheated. Back in 2012 I had a up and coming IM give me lessons and suddenly my game improved so much I was wining games on Playchess against 2750 players, I remember beating a Chessbase Trainer, rated over 2400, 3 games in a row and he gave me a free lesson and we reviewed games from a 2850 opponent that I couldn't draw a game to save my life. All the German and Russian Grandmasters were giving me high praise for my outstanding play on Playchess. Sadly I went thru a divorce that destroyed my life and stopped taking lessons when it started. Before I was taking lessons from a National Master but he couldn't explain the reasons for the moves he recommended but only this is what GM's play. Went to GM Sam Palatnik workshops which he is awesome to teach planning and strategy, I'm sure plenty of people thought I was cheating too. It is possible that intuition helps a lot in playing also.

[emadsen]

Hans Niemann strikes me as an Andy Kaufman-like character. You know, someone who gets off on people hating him, loves playing the villain, loves orchestrating a long con, seems anxious for a big reveal where he can expose his detractors as idiots, then bask in his sanctimony.

That's my impression of him. He seems to be playing a character: the wild-eyed, misunderstood genius who cannot suffer fools and is impatient with the unimaginative, bourgeois chess establishment.

Whether this is based on...

1) Derogatory comments Hans endured while stuck in the 2400s (not smart enough, not talented enough, etc) that inspired him to seek revenge by doubling-down his efforts, leading to a legitimate rise to the elite level, or...

2) Hans realizing there's no audience for the bad-boy, trash-talking villain in the 2400s; that no one cares unless the villain rises to the top and knocks the kings and princes off their thrones; so Hans decided to leverage computer assistance to get himself on the stage.

... is unclear to me at this time.

I'm skeptical based on Niemann's history of cheating online. Plus GMs have said his post-game analysis is incoherent. Plus GM Larry Kaufman's story (earlier in this thread) indicating Kaufman likely personally experienced playing against a cheater who couldn't competently discuss the game he just played. I interpreted it as an experienced chess pro saying, yes, it happens.

What a drama.

[CornfedForever]

Hans Niemann strikes me as an Andy Kaufman-like character.

Yup. And I say that as a big Andy fan.

I would think he is probably lying about the extent of his online cheating - given than chess.com pulled his account...again.

The only thing of importance to me though - and likely the chess community at large is: did he somehow cheat in the current tournament and against Magnus. I very seriously doubt that. I think Magnus lost...again, and as it was to someone who is a known 'online cheater', used it as an opportunity to bolt...bruised ego in tow.

[lkaufman]

Hans Niemann strikes me as an Andy Kaufman-like character.

Yup. And I say that as a big Andy fan.

I would think he is probably lying about the extent of his online cheating - given than chess.com pulled his account...again.

The only thing of importance to me though - and likely the chess community at large is: did he somehow cheat in the current tournament and against Magnus. I very seriously doubt that. I think Magnus lost...again, and as it was to someone who is a known 'online cheater', used it as an opportunity to bolt...bruised ego in tow.

At least he didn't say "Larry Kaufman-like character"! By the way, Andy Kaufman and I were born the same year (no known relationship). I agree with most of your comments, except that I believe that Carlsen believed that Niemann was cheating in that game (probably wrongly), and so I don't think it was just an excuse. He's lost games to weaker players than Neimann in the past without quitting or complaining.