Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

[dkappe]

I do agree that in Aronian Hans game the Nb5 was thematic and obvious ... and Aronian was confused as he figured he had an extra tempo since Hans moved his Bishop twice for no apparent reason except to lose one tempo. Would be interesting to see what the engines think of the second Bishop move to e2. However the follow up was pretty impressive by Hans ... that we can all agree on. Someone who can quickly spot a forced mate in 2 with so many pieces on the board ... yet he can't see a simple Knight check against Pragg???? After the Knight check it is like -9.5 and that move is so obvious that I can't but wonder if it was on purpose. If it was on purpose then what would the reasoning be? Just too many weird things.

Did you see Carlsen missing a one-move tactic against Ivanchuk to win a rook?

It’s almost as if Magnus is trying to throw people off of his own cheating with these preposterous moves.

[gordonr]

[d]4r1k1/5p2/6p1/Q1B1q3/4P2p/1P1p3P/P3n1P1/3R3K b - - 0 34

Even a 1000 ELO player can see that you can do a Knight check and win a pawn and still have very strong control of the e file ... this might not be the number 1 move of the engine but it is incredibly easy to see for a human and totally paralyzes white and is totally winning. Instead, he plays ... Nc3 ??? .... wait what ????

Based on your reasoning, Qxe4 is the obvious move. It immediately wins the pawn and control the e-file.

The mainline after Ng3 is not based on winning the pawn.... Ng3+, Kg1, Qh5, etc - Black is trying to infiltrate the back rank. The line Ng3+, Kg1, Qxe4 is no better than the immediate Qxe4. I'm not seeing anything that would be obvious to a 1000 ELO player in terms of avoiding Qxe4 in preference for Ng3+.

Carlsen missed an easier fork against Ivanchuk. What should we infer from that?

[d]8/5pk1/3P2p1/3qN3/5P2/6K1/2R5/8 b - - 1 55

[Albert Silver]

Personally, it was the opening move 8.Be2 that actually shocked me. The stupidest looking novelty I ever saw, whose only goal seems to be to lose a tempo.

Not so sure, the bishop has served its purpose on d3 and he doesn't want it swapped off by a knight landing on e5. Not a bad idea. Of course it was opening prep.

14.b3 on the other hand...wow you have to be sure before playing a move like that. The calculations which followed were flawless.

Why? It seemed like a completely natural move to prevent ...Nc4.

[Albert Silver]

Carlsen missed an easier fork against Ivanchuk. What should we infer from that?

[d]8/5pk1/3P2p1/3qN3/5P2/6K1/2R5/8 b - - 1 55

More than that, when Carlsen saw it, he threw up his hands in disgust, but not only did both the IM and GM commentating also not see that one-move tactic, they continued to misunderstand why Magnus was so upset.

[Chessqueen]

Carlsen missed an easier fork against Ivanchuk. What should we infer from that?

[d]8/5pk1/3P2p1/3qN3/5P2/6K1/2R5/8 b - - 1 55

More than that, when Carlsen saw it, he threw up his hands in disgust, but not only did both the IM and GM commentating also not see that one-move tactic, they continued to misunderstand why Magnus was so upset.

All that GM Niemann need is a draw to qualify for the top 8 players

[supersharp77]

It doesn't even matter if Niemann cheated. If Carlsen had won everything would have been OK. Everything stands and falls with the performance of Carlsen. That can't be right. What would have happened if Carlsen wasn't world champion? Would he only be No. 12 in the rankings? Could he behave like that without being disqualified himself? Just because he's the world champion, does he get to do whatever he wants?

What do you mean it doesn't matter that he cheated?? Why does everyone seem to think it is not a big deal to cheat ???!!!!! What in the world is the matter with your guys ???? If cheaters can get away with cheating then you can pretty much say goodbye to competitive chess! MC is the WCC and is probably the strongest player to ever play the game of chess .... so if he is the one making a point then obviously that means a lot more than if someone else does it. He earned that extra leverage because ... well maybe it is because he has been the WCC for over 10 years and has the highest rating of any human chess player in history !!! You might still think that he should be treated like any other chess player with a complaint and should put up and shut up ... but many don't share that opinion and think he can actually force changes that can improve competitive chess for future generations by putting a spotlight on cheating in chess and getting action to stamp it out.

I didn't want to say that it doesn't matter in the chess world. It doesn't matter in terms of Carlsen's behavior. He can't appear like that in public unless he has evidence to show. If every Super GM behaves like this after a loss against a nobody, then we don't need any more new players because they have to be afraid of being made scapegoats by the clan of the big ones, like by Carlsen! It bothers me anyway that always and everywhere only the stars play and collect the prize money! For years, only the top ten have played together at the tournaments, others have no chance to be there. That's why I don't watch tournaments anymore. The same stars always play and want to be with each other.

In his defeat against Niemann, he played really badly. Even without a computer, an average GM can win a game like this. Because Carlsen was weak.

The question is, why did Magnus play weak. He knew Niemann is a cheater, and my personal opinion is: Who once cheated will do it again. This thoughts can distract you on this level, so it doesn't matter if Niemann actually cheated in this particular game. Opponents of Niemann will always have this kind of thoughts in their mind during a game. I guess Magnus just was not able to handle this.

My opinion is: Ban cheaters. For their lifetime. They lost the right to play in a serious competition..

GETTING DOWN TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER!! Big Thanks To Eduard and Alexander Schmidt....
Top Rank Chess (Super GM's) has indeed become like a Private Little Club with the same 10-15 so called "Top" guys playing each other over and over at various locations... and this is not a good situation because there are more and more top rank players like Gukesh & Prag who need invites plus the "Old Lions" Ponomariov Grishuk Topalov Anand Garry K Shirov Leko Gelfand etc that mostly they Ignore....BUT we don't want Cheaters Or Accused Cheats Or Self Admitted Cheaters Getting Easy Free entry into These exclusive Tournaments Either....We Don't want the Elite Private little Club or The "Wide Open Cheatfest" Either.....Its A Real Big Problem Both Issues...

[Chessqueen]

It doesn't even matter if Niemann cheated. If Carlsen had won everything would have been OK. Everything stands and falls with the performance of Carlsen. That can't be right. What would have happened if Carlsen wasn't world champion? Would he only be No. 12 in the rankings? Could he behave like that without being disqualified himself? Just because he's the world champion, does he get to do whatever he wants?

What do you mean it doesn't matter that he cheated?? Why does everyone seem to think it is not a big deal to cheat ???!!!!! What in the world is the matter with your guys ???? If cheaters can get away with cheating then you can pretty much say goodbye to competitive chess! MC is the WCC and is probably the strongest player to ever play the game of chess .... so if he is the one making a point then obviously that means a lot more than if someone else does it. He earned that extra leverage because ... well maybe it is because he has been the WCC for over 10 years and has the highest rating of any human chess player in history !!! You might still think that he should be treated like any other chess player with a complaint and should put up and shut up ... but many don't share that opinion and think he can actually force changes that can improve competitive chess for future generations by putting a spotlight on cheating in chess and getting action to stamp it out.

I didn't want to say that it doesn't matter in the chess world. It doesn't matter in terms of Carlsen's behavior. He can't appear like that in public unless he has evidence to show. If every Super GM behaves like this after a loss against a nobody, then we don't need any more new players because they have to be afraid of being made scapegoats by the clan of the big ones, like by Carlsen! It bothers me anyway that always and everywhere only the stars play and collect the prize money! For years, only the top ten have played together at the tournaments, others have no chance to be there. That's why I don't watch tournaments anymore. The same stars always play and want to be with each other.

In his defeat against Niemann, he played really badly. Even without a computer, an average GM can win a game like this. Because Carlsen was weak.

The question is, why did Magnus play weak. He knew Niemann is a cheater, and my personal opinion is: Who once cheated will do it again. This thoughts can distract you on this level, so it doesn't matter if Niemann actually cheated in this particular game. Opponents of Niemann will always have this kind of thoughts in their mind during a game. I guess Magnus just was not able to handle this.

My opinion is: Ban cheaters. For their lifetime. They lost the right to play in a serious competition..

GETTING DOWN TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER!! Big Thanks To Eduard and Alexander Schmidt....
Top Rank Chess (Super GM's) has indeed become like a Private Little Club with the same 10-15 so called "Top" guys playing each other over and over at various locations... and this is not a good situation because there are more and more top rank players like Gukesh & Prag who need invites plus the "Old Lions" Ponomariov Grishuk Topalov Anand Garry K Shirov Leko Gelfand etc that mostly they Ignore....BUT we don't want Cheaters Or Accused Cheats Or Self Admitted Cheaters Getting Easy Free entry into These exclusive Tournaments Either....We Don't want the Elite Private little Club or The "Wide Open Cheatfest" Either.....Its A Real Big Problem Both Issues...

GM Niemann did it again [Event "Julius Baer Generation Cup Prelims 2022"]
[pgn][White "Niemann,Hans Moke"]
[Black "Duda,Jan-Krzysztof"]
[Site "Online"]
[Round "15.6"]
[Annotator ""]
[Result "1-0"]
[Date "2022.09.14"]
[WhiteElo "2688"]
[BlackElo "2731"]
[PlyCount "111"]

1. e4 {[%emt 0:0:0]} c5 {[%emt 0:0:0]} 2. Nf3 {[%emt 0:0:4]} d6 {[%emt 0:0:1]} 3. Bb5+ {[%emt 0:0:2]} Nd7 {[%emt 0:0:5]} 4. a4 {[%emt 0:0:31]} Ngf6 {[%emt 0:0:4]} 5. Nc3 {[%emt 0:0:2]} g6 {[%emt 0:0:14]} 6. a5 {[%emt 0:0:11]} Bg7 {[%emt 0:0:2]} 7. O-O {[%emt 0:0:4]} a6 {[%emt 0:0:9]} 8. Be2 {[%emt 0:0:5]} O-O {[%emt 0:0:40]} 9. d3 {[%emt 0:0:7]} Nb8 {[%emt 0:0:14]} 10. e5 {[%emt 0:0:2]} dxe5 {[%emt 0:1:25]} 11. Nxe5 {[%emt 0:0:2]} Be6 {[%emt 0:0:0]} 12. Bf3 {[%emt 0:0:26]} Nd5 $1 {[%emt 0:1:55]} 13. Re1 {[%emt 0:0:5]} Nxc3 {[%emt 0:1:35]} 14. bxc3 {[%emt 0:0:3]} Nc6 {[%emt 0:0:0]} 15. Bxc6 {[%emt 0:1:38]} bxc6 {[%emt 0:0:0]} 16. Bf4 {[%emt 0:0:42]} ({ Don't blunder} 16. Nxc6 $2 Qd6 17. Nxe7+ Qxe7 $0 $19 )Qc8 {[%emt 0:2:48]} 17. c4 {[%emt 0:0:8]} g5 {[%emt 0:0:11]} 18. Bd2 {[%emt 0:0:49]} f6 {[%emt 0:0:32]} 19. Nf3 {[%emt 0:0:4]} g4 {[%emt 0:0:6][#]} 20. Nh4 $1 {[%emt 0:0:27]} Re8 {[%emt 0:1:12]} 21. Qe2 {[%emt 0:0:52]} Bf7 {[%emt 0:0:28]} 22. f3 {[%emt 0:0:23]} h5 {[%emt 0:1:21]} (22... f5 $0 $16 { might work better.} )23. fxg4 {[%emt 0:0:3]} hxg4 {[%emt 0:0:35]} 24. Qf2 {[%emt 0:0:8]} e6 {[%emt 0:0:38]} 25. Bc3 {[%emt 0:0:3]} e5 {[%emt 0:0:1]} 26. Nf5 {[%emt 0:0:3]} Qe6 {[%emt 0:0:17]} 27. Rab1 {[%emt 0:0:52]} Bg6 {[%emt 0:0:52]} 28. Nxg7 {[%emt 0:0:3]} Kxg7 {[%emt 0:0:0]} 29. Qxc5 {[%emt 0:0:0]} Bf5 {[%emt 0:1:22]} 30. Rb6 {[%emt 0:0:22]} Qe7 {[%emt 0:0:11]} 31. Qf2 {[%emt 0:0:27]} Qd7 {[%emt 0:0:13]} 32. Rf1 {[%emt 0:0:19]} Kg6 {[%emt 0:0:2]} 33. d4 {[%emt 0:1:14]} exd4 {[%emt 0:0:17]} 34. Bxd4 {[%emt 0:0:3]} Re4 {[%emt 0:0:52]} 35. c3 {[%emt 0:0:11]} Rf8 {[%emt 0:0:53]} 36. Rb7 {[%emt 0:1:2]} Qe6 {[%emt 0:0:15]} 37. Qh4 {[%emt 0:0:20]} Rf7 {[%emt 0:0:2]} 38. Rb8 {[%emt 0:0:46]} Rh7 {[%emt 0:0:11]} 39. Qg3 {[%emt 0:0:41]} ({ Inferior is} 39. Rg8+ Kf7 40. Qf2 Kxg8 $0 $17 )Re2 $2 {[%emt 0:0:18]} (39... Re7 { was worth a try.} 40. Rf8 Rf7 )40. Qf4 $2 {[%emt 0:0:58]} ({ Weaker is} 40. Rf8 Rf7 41. Rg8+ Kh7 $0 $18 )(40. c5 $0 $18 { has better winning chances.} )Be4 {[%emt 0:1:19]} 41. Qxf6+ {[%emt 0:0:18]} Qxf6 {[%emt 0:0:1]} 42. Rxf6+ {[%emt 0:0:1]} Kh5 {[%emt 0:0:4]} 43. Re8 {[%emt 0:1:1]} Rxg2+ {[%emt 0:0:20]} 44. Kf1 {[%emt 0:0:1]} Bf3 {[%emt 0:0:2]} 45. Re5+ {[%emt 0:0:3]} Kh4 {[%emt 0:0:1]} 46. Bf2+ {[%emt 0:0:3]} Kh3 {[%emt 0:0:10]} 47. Rff5 {[%emt 0:0:7]} g3 {[%emt 0:0:29]} 48. Rxf3 {[%emt 0:0:50]} Kxh2 {[%emt 0:0:1]} 49. Be3 {[%emt 0:1:6]} Kh1 {[%emt 0:0:20]} 50. Rg5 {[%emt 0:0:44]} Rb7 {[%emt 0:0:13]} 51. Rh5+ $2 {[%emt 0:0:50]} (51. Bb6 )Rh2 {[%emt 0:0:3]} 52. Rxh2+ {[%emt 0:0:33]} gxh2 $0 $18 {[%emt 0:0:0]} 53. Bf4 {[%emt 0:0:3]} c5 {[%emt 0:0:29]} 54. Rh3 {[%emt 0:0:39]} Rb1+ {[%emt 0:0:6]} 55. Ke2 {[%emt 0:0:9]} Rb2+ {[%emt 0:0:31]} 56. Kd3 {[%emt 0:0:5]} 1-0[/pgn]

[Collingwood]

It is interesting that Giri and Aronian and several of the top GM's are changing their opinion on Hans and his previous cheating. Giri especially mentioned that he always knew of Hans serial online cheating and that it was common knowledge with many GM's. MC applauding Pragg for his excellent preparation and gaining a winning position against him was telling everyone that not all up and coming young players are the same. Hopefully all this drama will be a lesson to all future cheaters that cheating does not pay off! I do agree that MC giving Hans free points is taking those points away from other players ... but you could say that Hans got his invite possibly because Hans took the place of another player due to his online cheating. Let's hope that this puts focus on the issue ... no player should have to play a chess game with any doubts that his opponent could be cheating.

Can you please give a link to Giri's comments? I haven't heard them before.

Yes, Aronian initially gave HN the benefit of the doubt, but now has changed his attitude after learning stuff he says he didn't know before. And Nepo's comments in St. Louis clearly show he thinks HN is a cheater too.

[M ANSARI]

[d]4r1k1/5p2/6p1/Q1B1q3/4P2p/1P1p3P/P3n1P1/3R3K b - - 0 34

Even a 1000 ELO player can see that you can do a Knight check and win a pawn and still have very strong control of the e file ... this might not be the number 1 move of the engine but it is incredibly easy to see for a human and totally paralyzes white and is totally winning. Instead, he plays ... Nc3 ??? .... wait what ????

Based on your reasoning, Qxe4 is the obvious move. It immediately wins the pawn and control the e-file.

The mainline after Ng3 is not based on winning the pawn.... Ng3+, Kg1, Qh5, etc - Black is trying to infiltrate the back rank. The line Ng3+, Kg1, Qxe4 is no better than the immediate Qxe4. I'm not seeing anything that would be obvious to a 1000 ELO player in terms of avoiding Qxe4 in preference for Ng3+.

Carlsen missed an easier fork against Ivanchuk. What should we infer from that?

[d]8/5pk1/3P2p1/3qN3/5P2/6K1/2R5/8 b - - 1 55

What on earth are you talking about????. This is a human vs human chess game ... who cares about the main strongest engine line !!! The engine shows like 15 winning moves of which the most human move is Knight check and take the pawn. Queen and Knight hovering around a King and with an advanced pawn and rook and queen on same file ... a human can see that and immediately realize it is winning. For sure an engine might see a more obscure or more forceful win but they don't have the luxury of looking at what the engine main line is.

In Magnus miss of Queen check picking up the rook, it was a time scramble flurry and MC immediately saw the win after he impulsively played his move and reacted that he just missed that. How can you compare this to Hans with 3 minutes on his clock and playing a ridiculous move that seems to be throwing away the win but no losing.

I guess everyone has his own views on this and no data is going to change things. It is possible that Neiman is the next american Bobby Fischer ... the ease in which he is able to totally outplay some of the strongest players in the world is very impressive. However his games against some players is very poor ... so certainly not consistent. In time more data will surface and either he is the new Bobby Fischer or it is all something else.

[Collingwood]

It doesn't even matter if Niemann cheated. ...

What do you mean it doesn't matter that he cheated?? Why does everyone seem to think it is not a big deal to cheat ???!!!!! What in the world is the matter with your guys ???? If cheaters can get away with cheating then you can pretty much say goodbye to competitive chess! ...

Yes, I'd also like to know why so many here are okay with Niemann cheating...

Even if it were only the instances he's admitted to, why do they think that's okay?