We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:28 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:03 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:18 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:40 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:23 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:45 am [pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).
Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can. :roll:
The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.
So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2" :?:
Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.
I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.
I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.
I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my, and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most


[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]
I can't do it tonite but tomorrow night should be ok.
At what time tomorrow? Please do not make it after 7:30 PM. I prefer between 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Central Time.
lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:39 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:28 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:03 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:18 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:40 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:23 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:45 am [pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).
Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can. :roll:
The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.
So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2" :?:
Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.
I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.
I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.
I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my, and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most


[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]
I can't do it tonite but tomorrow night should be ok.
At what time tomorrow? Please do not make it after 7:30 PM. I prefer between 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Central Time.
OK, 7 pm Central time, 8 pm Eastern time (my time zone).
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:52 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:39 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:28 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:03 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:18 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:40 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:23 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:45 am [pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).
Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can. :roll:
The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.
So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2" :?:
Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.
I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.
I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.
I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my, and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most


[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]
I can't do it tonite but tomorrow night should be ok.
At what time tomorrow? Please do not make it after 7:30 PM. I prefer between 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Central Time.
OK, 7 pm Central time, 8 pm Eastern time (my time zone).
Okay, tomorrow it is at 7:00PM central time. I know I will have a tough time against Komodo Dragon2 MCTC. But it is hard to know since I only have version 13.3, and it is already giving me a hard time on my intel i7 3.40 GHz :roll:
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:00 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:52 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:39 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:28 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:03 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:18 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:40 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:23 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:45 am [pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).
Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can. :roll:
The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.
So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2" :?:
Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.
I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.
I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.
I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my, and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most


[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]
I can't do it tonite but tomorrow night should be ok.
At what time tomorrow? Please do not make it after 7:30 PM. I prefer between 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Central Time.
OK, 7 pm Central time, 8 pm Eastern time (my time zone).
Okay, tomorrow it is at 7:00PM central time. I know I will have a tough time against Komodo Dragon2 MCTC. But it is hard to know since I only have version 13.3, and it is already giving me a hard time on my intel i7 3.40 GHz :roll:
I just managed to win 3 games and drew one against Komodo 13.3, The reason for drawing was that I allowed an Opening where the queenside did not play too much importance and after a gambit which I accepted Komodo 13.3 was able to draw and I did NOT had a chance to activate my queen side advantage that I had with the extra Rook, As a matter of fact one of my Bishop became useless and the only way to release it was to exchange it for two white pawns, but Komodo did NOT give me a chance since it repeated the three fold repetition as soon as I traded my Bishop for one of the pawn and refused to take my Bishop and executed the three fold repetition instead; knowing that all that I had to do next was to activate my extra Rook which my own Bishop and White two pawns had it trapped. Oh Well I learn NOT to get into that Opening ever against a top engine even with a Rook Odds.
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:47 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:00 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:52 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:39 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:28 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:03 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:18 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:40 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:23 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:45 am [pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).
Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can. :roll:
The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.
So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2" :?:
Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.
I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.
I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.
I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my, and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most


[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]
I can't do it tonite but tomorrow night should be ok.
At what time tomorrow? Please do not make it after 7:30 PM. I prefer between 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Central Time.
OK, 7 pm Central time, 8 pm Eastern time (my time zone).
Okay, tomorrow it is at 7:00PM central time. I know I will have a tough time against Komodo Dragon2 MCTC. But it is hard to know since I only have version 13.3, and it is already giving me a hard time on my intel i7 3.40 GHz :roll:
I just managed to win 3 games and drew one against Komodo 13.3, The reason for drawing was that I allowed an Opening where the queenside did not play too much importance and after a gambit which I accepted Komodo 13.3 was able to draw and I did NOT had a chance to activate my queen side advantage that I had with the extra Rook, As a matter of fact one of my Bishop became useless and the only way to release it was to exchange it for two white pawns, but Komodo did NOT give me a chance since it repeated the three fold repetition as soon as I traded my Bishop for one of the pawn and refused to take my Bishop and executed the three fold repetition instead; knowing that all that I had to do next was to activate my extra Rook which my own Bishop and White two pawns had it trapped. Oh Well I learn NOT to get into that Opening ever against a top engine even with a Rook Odds.
I am not going to give much away, but I will be careful not to accept a gambit where the Queen side is not too useful for a player of my level, but this were the first four moves of the king Gambit accepted. My next move should have been either 4. Kf1 d6 or Nf6! , but I blundered :oops:

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2021.06.05"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "*"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[ECO "C33"]
[Opening "KGA"]
[Variation "Bishop's Gambit"]
[BlackElo "1975"]
[Time "11:24:23"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[TimeControl "0+40"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ 4. Kf1[/pgn]
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:38 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:47 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:00 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:52 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:39 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:28 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:12 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:03 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:54 pm
chrisw wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:18 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:40 pm
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:23 am
Chessqueen wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:24 am
lkaufman wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:45 am [pgn]
[Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "KomodoDragon2"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 * [/pgn]

Chris might want more time off before resuming, but I'll go ahead and post the first move here. No hurry to respond. He is not required to play 2...Nd5, he can choose 2...Ng8 as well (some strong human players have played this in normal chess!).
Is it Okay with Chrisw to use an Opening Book.ctg , but really I do NOT believe it makes any difference since Top engines can create better variation from any position than any Human can. :roll:
The only knight odds opening book I know of is the one I made, and it doesn't even cover Alekhine's defense. A normal opening book wouldn't even be useful for a strong player with knight odds, the position is just different.
So Komodo Dragon2 MCTS is only using a time control of 3'+2" for the entire game whereas Chrisw is using at least 1 minute per move. I thought that you both agree that Komodo Dragon2 MCTS was going to use a Time control of 900'+2" :?:
Where did you get that? Neither of those time controls was ever mentioned. What we settled on for both games was that Dragon would just take 20 seconds on every move.
I doubt more time would help an engine. Either it finds a line to exploit a human “error” or it doesn’t. Human errors are not going to be very deep, so engine won’t needs huge amount of depth to exploit them. Critical in these human comp odds games is human error. Which is why you’re playing blitz and rapid only vs strong player, lack of time impacts the human way more than the engine.
I agree with you. Even with engine vs. engine games at knight odds, once the stronger program is looking ten plies or so deeper than the opponent, giving it more time or more cores doesn't seem to help. However I do feel that 15' + 10" should be enough time for a professional player to play a knight odds game well; he doesn't have to seek the "best" move as in a normal game, just a move that safely keeps the win in hand.
I am ready to take a challenge against Komodo Dragon2 MCTS at Rook Odds while Chriw decides when to start, Komodo Dragon will use 15 Seconds per Move and I will use 45 Seconds per move this is the starting position we will be posting each move here, remember it might take me extra than 45 seconds since I have to post every of Komodo Dragon2 response to my, and once I see your response, immediately I will post my, since it take me longer to make my moves while i am thinking you can post the diagram here after every 5 moves and I will simply write down my moves one after the other, for instance 5 .Ne5 Bb4 etc.. I will post my all moves and we will stay here until the game is completed, therefore, it should NOT take more than 1 hour and 15 minutes at the most


[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]
I can't do it tonite but tomorrow night should be ok.
At what time tomorrow? Please do not make it after 7:30 PM. I prefer between 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Central Time.
OK, 7 pm Central time, 8 pm Eastern time (my time zone).
Okay, tomorrow it is at 7:00PM central time. I know I will have a tough time against Komodo Dragon2 MCTC. But it is hard to know since I only have version 13.3, and it is already giving me a hard time on my intel i7 3.40 GHz :roll:
I just managed to win 3 games and drew one against Komodo 13.3, The reason for drawing was that I allowed an Opening where the queenside did not play too much importance and after a gambit which I accepted Komodo 13.3 was able to draw and I did NOT had a chance to activate my queen side advantage that I had with the extra Rook, As a matter of fact one of my Bishop became useless and the only way to release it was to exchange it for two white pawns, but Komodo did NOT give me a chance since it repeated the three fold repetition as soon as I traded my Bishop for one of the pawn and refused to take my Bishop and executed the three fold repetition instead; knowing that all that I had to do next was to activate my extra Rook which my own Bishop and White two pawns had it trapped. Oh Well I learn NOT to get into that Opening ever against a top engine even with a Rook Odds.
I am not going to give much away, but I will be careful not to accept a gambit where the Queen side is not too useful for a player of my level, but this were the first four moves of the king Gambit accepted. My next move should have been either 4. Kf1 d6 or Nf6! , but I blundered :oops:

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2021.06.05"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "*"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[ECO "C33"]
[Opening "KGA"]
[Variation "Bishop's Gambit"]
[BlackElo "1975"]
[Time "11:24:23"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[TimeControl "0+40"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ 4. Kf1[/pgn]
lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:46 pm
I am not going to give much away, but I will be careful not to accept a gambit where the Queen side is not too useful for a player of my level, but this were the first four moves of the king Gambit accepted. My next move should have been either 4. Kf1 d6 or Nf6! , but I blundered :oops:

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2021.06.05"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "*"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[ECO "C33"]
[Opening "KGA"]
[Variation "Bishop's Gambit"]
[BlackElo "1975"]
[Time "11:24:23"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[TimeControl "0+40"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ 4. Kf1[/pgn]
I'm guessing you played 4...Bc5?, which is quite bad but not technically a "blunder". I can't think of any plausible move in that position that would be an outright blunder except for obviously ridiculous moves.
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:47 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:46 pm
I am not going to give much away, but I will be careful not to accept a gambit where the Queen side is not too useful for a player of my level, but this were the first four moves of the king Gambit accepted. My next move should have been either 4. Kf1 d6 or Nf6! , but I blundered :oops:

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "MININT-UB2PIMJ"]
[Date "2021.06.05"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "*"]
[White "Komodo-13.3-64bit-bmi2"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[ECO "C33"]
[Opening "KGA"]
[Variation "Bishop's Gambit"]
[BlackElo "1975"]
[Time "11:24:23"]
[WhiteElo "3400"]
[TimeControl "0+40"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Qh4+ 4. Kf1[/pgn]
I'm guessing you played 4...Bc5?, which is quite bad but not technically a "blunder". I can't think of any plausible move in that position that would be an outright blunder except for obviously ridiculous moves.
Yes I did, and after 5. d4 I moved my Bishop to b6 and locked my Queenside specially my Rook for a long time :oops:

Okay, I am ready to rumble

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1]/fen]
lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

Ready to start?

[pgn]
[Event "Rook odds Game"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.06"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon by Komodo Chess 2 64-bi"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "1"]
[TimeControl "15" vs 45"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1 . e4 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

lkaufman wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:05 am Ready to start?

[pgn]
[Event "Rook odds Game"]
[Site "Bethesda"]
[Date "2021.06.06"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon by Komodo Chess 2 64-bi"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1NBQKBNR w Kkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "1"]
[TimeControl "15" vs 45"]

{2048MB, Hiarcs14zlBook.ctg, laptop i9} 1 . e4 * [/pgn] 1.e4 d5
Last edited by Chessqueen on Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:10 am, edited 2 times in total.