Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

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mohit
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by mohit »

DrCliche wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:20 am Here's some more fuel for the fire, but the tl;dr is that Niemann is overwhelmingly likely to be a chronic and habitual OTB cheater. Moreover, he was likely fiddling with a device behind his right ear in one of his Sinquefield interviews.

Without further ado:

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https://twitter.com/atl_kings/status/1568656197812891653

The data is a contiguous block of classical tournaments in which Niemann played >0 games against opposition rated >2000 USCF on average.


For some of the listed tournaments I was unable to definitively confirm whether or not games were broadcast live in 2019/2020, but in zero instances did I find a tournament website that contradicted the claims of the above table. For the rest of my analysis I assume that the broadcast status claimed in the tweet is correct. I was unable to find any mentions of broadcast delay, and for the rest of my analysis I assume there was none.


If you run a regression on the above dataset, you will find that whether or not a tournament was broadcast live explains 67% (!!!!!) of the variation in Niemann's performance over that time period. (The rest of the variation is likely random, or at least isn't explained by age, number of rounds, or strength of opponents.)

Here are the regression coefficients, their p-values, and confidence intervals:

Image

As you can see, the coefficients for time (measured in months), number of rounds, and average opponent all have very high p-values, and are statistically indistinguishable from 0.

The way to interpret the coefficients is as follows:
  • Time — for each month that has passed since March 2019, Niemann is expected to gain 0.21 more Elo at a given tournament, though 0 is in the 95% confidence interval. (i.e. Niemann doesn't appear to be improving over time.)
  • LiveCast — if there's a live broadcast at a given tournament, Niemann is expected to gain 23.11 more Elo at that tournament, with a p-value of 0.0009, and a 95% CI of [11, 35]. (Holy shit!)
  • NumRounds — for each game played at a given tournament, Niemann is expected to lose 0.78 more Elo at that tournament, though 0 is in the 95% confidence interval. (i.e. Niemann doesn't appear to be affected by fatigue.)
  • AvgOpp — if you increase the strength of his average opponent at a given tournament by 100 Elo, Niemann is expected to gain 2 more Elo at that tournament, though 0 is in the 95% confidence interval. (i.e. Niemann doesn't appear to be "playing up" or "playing down" to his competition, nor to be affected by mathematical caps on his performance rating against low rated opponents.)
This is incredibly damning, and in my mind confirms beyond a shadow of a doubt that Niemann was cheating OVER THE BOARD at every available opportunity in 2019 and 2020. There's no reason to believe that he didn't and doesn't simply continue to cheat over the board at every available opportunity, period.

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Fascinating analysis. This certainly shuts down many of the proposed alternate explanations for this result. The only confounding explanation I could think of for this result is that Hans performs significantly better when under media glare. (This would result in the dependent variable correlating with the error term in your regression, a potential endogeneity concern when you make the leap to causation). While this is probably true for Hans, I dont think anyone realistically believes it would make THAT much of a difference in performance. A difference in performance of 100+ ELO is ridiculously high to be explained by such a hypothesis.

The complaints regarding the lack of control, as mentioned by some on this forum, are frankly ridiculous.

However, the biggest concern here is the accuracy of the Live / Not Live classification.
1. AtlantaChess (original tweeter) gives no source for the classification.
2. Strong Chess, replied that 5 tournaments were misclassified (US Masters /Philly Intl / World Open etc). He also gives no source for his claim, other than suggesting that he was 'present' for (at least) one of the tournaments.
3. There is a discussion on only 1 of the 5 'misclassified' tournaments - the US Masters. StrongChess refutes AtlantaChess by saying that 'I was there. the projector only had a couple top boards, and most boards were not on the DGTs. The TDs manually transcribed scoresheets into the DB after the rounds. I even have a memory of Hans sitting in the non-DGT area playing a lower rated one round.' AtlantaChess does not contradict this, nor does he challenge the misclassification allegation for the other 4 tournaments.

You yourself showed that the conclusions of your analysis fall below significance if 2+ (relevant) tournaments are classified wrong. Since this is a question of 5 tournaments, the validity of your analysis rests on whether you believe AtlantaChess or StrongChess. And based on point 3 above, I lean towards Strong Chess.
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Graham Banks
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Graham Banks »

Collingwood wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:08 pm...........Look at all the defenders of Niemann in this thread, when the one thing we know for a fact is that Neimann is a cheater, because he's admitted to it. (We just don't know how much, when and where.)

Of course, they are okay with him cheating. Otherwise, they would condemn him instead of defending him, and instead of making personal attacks against Carlsen, Nakamura, Aronian, ...
I do not condone cheating just because I said that Carlsen is behaving like a spoilt brat.

All I'm saying is that any accusations of Niemann cheating in over the board play must be backed up with concrete evidence.

Most people did some stupid things in their teenage years (and I'm not talking major crimes). Should each and every one of them be pilloried forever?
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dkappe
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by dkappe »

mohit wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:36 pm Fascinating analysis. This certainly shuts down many of the proposed alternate explanations for this result. The only confounding explanation I could think of for this result is that Hans performs significantly better when under media glare. (This would result in the dependent variable correlating with the error term in your regression, a potential endogeneity concern when you make the leap to causation). While this is probably true for Hans, I dont think anyone realistically believes it would make THAT much of a difference in performance. A difference in performance of 100+ ELO is ridiculously high to be explained by such a hypothesis.

The complaints regarding the lack of control, as mentioned by some on this forum, are frankly ridiculous.

However, the biggest concern here is the accuracy of the Live / Not Live classification.
1. AtlantaChess (original tweeter) gives no source for the classification.
2. Strong Chess, replied that 5 tournaments were misclassified (US Masters /Philly Intl / World Open etc). He also gives no source for his claim, other than suggesting that he was 'present' for (at least) one of the tournaments.
3. There is a discussion on only 1 of the 5 'misclassified' tournaments - the US Masters. StrongChess refutes AtlantaChess by saying that 'I was there. the projector only had a couple top boards, and most boards were not on the DGTs. The TDs manually transcribed scoresheets into the DB after the rounds. I even have a memory of Hans sitting in the non-DGT area playing a lower rated one round.' AtlantaChess does not contradict this, nor does he challenge the misclassification allegation for the other 4 tournaments.

You yourself showed that the conclusions of your analysis fall below significance if 2+ (relevant) tournaments are classified wrong. Since this is a question of 5 tournaments, the validity of your analysis rests on whether you believe AtlantaChess or StrongChess. And based on point 3 above, I lean towards Strong Chess.
Already asked and answered. It’s an amateur analysis, unsophisticated and full of holes. See references to Kenneth Regan’s analysis above. Using the same method he uses for discovering insider trading, he found no evidence of cheating in the 106 events Niemann has played in since 2020.
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

dkappe wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:20 pm
M ANSARI wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:13 pm I absolutely know the difference between Dlugy and Ivanov and remember Dlugy from ICC days... I think there was a Tourney on Chess.com where he was winning everything and got disconnected. There was a big fuss about that at the time of whether he was just disconnected or got cut off by Chess.com. Maybe it was nothing but somehow I remember that and when MC mentioned Dlugy then it did seem to click. If he is now in prison in Russia then I hope it is not because of anything nefarious he did and it is just a political thing. If he is in prison how could he be Hans trainer?
Stop with your gossiping. You’re worse than Nakamura.

A quick check of Wikipedia and other sources:
Dlugy was imprisoned in Russia in April 2005 on charges of embezzlement, but was acquitted and freed later that year.
Wait ... what ???? Dlugy ... the trainer of Hans Neiman is someone who went to jail for embezzlement? :D :D :D Do you know what going to jail for embezzlement means?? It means stealing from someone or from somewhere you work for! I know we have a tough crowd here where cheating is absolutely fine and acceptable ... but sorry to say ... going to jail for embezzlement is not a good sign IMHO!!! Happy for him that he got acquitted and wouldn't wish a Russian prison on anyone ... but this just got a lot more interesting!
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

Graham Banks wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:46 pm
Collingwood wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:08 pm...........Look at all the defenders of Niemann in this thread, when the one thing we know for a fact is that Neimann is a cheater, because he's admitted to it. (We just don't know how much, when and where.)

Of course, they are okay with him cheating. Otherwise, they would condemn him instead of defending him, and instead of making personal attacks against Carlsen, Nakamura, Aronian, ...
I do not condone cheating just because I said that Carlsen is behaving like a spoilt brat.

All I'm saying is that any accusations of Niemann cheating in over the board play must be backed up with concrete evidence.

Most people did some stupid things in their teenage years (and I'm not talking major crimes). Should each and every one of them be pilloried forever?
Is stealing cars when you are a teenager ok if the car is stolen and nobody gets hurt? Or is it just kids being kids? Are home invasions by 16 year old kids ok somehow if the house is empty? They are just stealing stuff from rich people on holiday anyways. Where is the line that you would put where it becomes acceptable to cheat? Or maybe cheating is only cheating if you get caught?? If you don' you are just one smart cookie and deserve any advantage you get??
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Graham Banks
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Graham Banks »

M ANSARI wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:12 pm
Graham Banks wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:46 pm
Collingwood wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:08 pm...........Look at all the defenders of Niemann in this thread, when the one thing we know for a fact is that Neimann is a cheater, because he's admitted to it. (We just don't know how much, when and where.)

Of course, they are okay with him cheating. Otherwise, they would condemn him instead of defending him, and instead of making personal attacks against Carlsen, Nakamura, Aronian, ...
I do not condone cheating just because I said that Carlsen is behaving like a spoilt brat.

All I'm saying is that any accusations of Niemann cheating in over the board play must be backed up with concrete evidence.

Most people did some stupid things in their teenage years (and I'm not talking major crimes). Should each and every one of them be pilloried forever?
Is stealing cars when you are a teenager ok if the car is stolen and nobody gets hurt? Or is it just kids being kids? Are home invasions by 16 year old kids ok somehow if the house is empty? They are just stealing stuff from rich people on holiday anyways. Where is the line that you would put where it becomes acceptable to cheat? Or maybe cheating is only cheating if you get caught?? If you don' you are just one smart cookie and deserve any advantage you get??
With all due respect, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

None of those crimes are okay by me. Not the sort of things I was alluding to by 'stupid things'.

Niemann cheated online when he was 12 and 16. Bad thing to do and he received temporary bans as a punishment, but certainly not comparable to any of the crimes that you mentioned.

I would say that it's almost impossible to cheat in over the board play without detection in top tournaments, but yes, accusations must be backed up with concrete proof.

We should also consider the credentials of Regan, plus the in-depth anti-cheating system he has developed.
If FIDE has used him, and still uses him as their top expert in the field, then one would be silly to throw his conclusions aside just because it doesn't fit what they want to believe.
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mohit
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by mohit »

dkappe wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:49 pm
Already asked and answered. It’s an amateur analysis, unsophisticated and full of holes. See references to Kenneth Regan’s analysis above. Using the same method he uses for discovering insider trading, he found no evidence of cheating in the 106 events Niemann has played in since 2020.
Comparing this with Regan's analysis is simply invalid, for multiple reasons - They look at very different time periods (with a small overlap), they look at different games (only OTB vs OTB+online), answer very different questions. These can easily explain the seeming contradiction between both the analyses, with both being valid.

If you feel someone's analysis is wrong, the onus is on you to show SPECIFICALLY why, without resorting to broad statements like it being 'amateur'.

The ONLY (though potentially fatal) flaw in his analysis is the accuracy of the broadcast variable. (Which to be fair, is more a flaw with the data. The analysis itself is spot on).

Calling it 'unsophisticated and full of holes' is mildly hilarious, and with respect, betrays your own naivete.
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by dkappe »

M ANSARI wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:05 pm
Dlugy was imprisoned in Russia in April 2005 on charges of embezzlement, but was acquitted and freed later that year.

Wait ... what ???? Dlugy ... the trainer of Hans Neiman is someone who went to jail for embezzlement? :D :D :D Do you know what going to jail for embezzlement means?? It means stealing from someone or from somewhere you work for! I know we have a tough crowd here where cheating is absolutely fine and acceptable ... but sorry to say ... going to jail for embezzlement is not a good sign IMHO!!! Happy for him that he got acquitted and wouldn't wish a Russian prison on anyone ... but this just got a lot more interesting!
Reading comprehension is not your friend, is it? He was “imprisoned” (not jailed) without trial. This — pretrial imprisonment — is common in Russia. He was acquitted — found not guilty — and freed. So he did not “go to jail” for embezzlement.

If you want to do a little bit of fact checking, something to which you seem allergic, then you’ll find that Dlugy and Kasparov worked together on an investment fund in Russia. Given that Kasparov was a thorn in the side of Putin, Dlugy might consider himself lucky he wasn’t poisoned.
Last edited by dkappe on Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dkappe
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by dkappe »

mohit wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:28 pm
dkappe wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:49 pm
Already asked and answered. It’s an amateur analysis, unsophisticated and full of holes. See references to Kenneth Regan’s analysis above. Using the same method he uses for discovering insider trading, he found no evidence of cheating in the 106 events Niemann has played in since 2020.
Comparing this with Regan's analysis is simply invalid, for multiple reasons - They look at very different time periods (with a small overlap), they look at different games (only OTB vs OTB+online), answer very different questions. These can easily explain the seeming contradiction between both the analyses, with both being valid.

If you feel someone's analysis is wrong, the onus is on you to show SPECIFICALLY why, without resorting to broad statements like it being 'amateur'.

The ONLY (though potentially fatal) flaw in his analysis is the accuracy of the broadcast variable. (Which to be fair, is more a flaw with the data. The analysis itself is spot on).

Calling it 'unsophisticated and full of holes' is mildly hilarious, and with respect, betrays your own naivete.
If I say your grandmother’s watercolor paintings aren’t even close to the quality of a Rembrandt, I’m not going to waste my time telling you SPECIFICALLY why (careful with the caps there, boomer).
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by CornfedForever »

Collingwood wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:08 pm
Are you kidding? :shock:
Naming no names, In every forum you will find 'someone' stirring the pot for the sake of exercising what muscles they may (not otherwise?) have. As I like to say, they may be cute, but 'don't feed the animals'.

Online, Hans has a history.
OTB...none that anyone has produced to this point. Most people choose to exercise their inner Jack Webb when it comes to things like this.