Moderation: Chesslogik 2008 DHC Open (Blitz) Chess

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

Moderator: Ras

chrisw

Moderation: Chesslogik 2008 DHC Open (Blitz) Chess

Post by chrisw »

Well, apparently the thread referred to in the title has been subject to some criticism and disagreement and now languishes in the mod archives awaiting a 'decision' ;-)

having now read it, it seems:

Somebody has published a tournament in which there are apparently some clone engines participating.

The CCC Charter, when written in 1997, made no comments about 'clones' because the issue was not real at that time. Since then the Charter has been interpreted/extended by previous mod teams to take action on posts which promote/provide links to clone engines. There is some justification for this denial of freedom to report (free speech issue) on the grounds of the illegal status of clones (the dubious legality clause in Charter) but it seems to me the real reason is fundamentally political (these forums are by and for engine people and programmers who justificably strongly resent clones being passed off as real work). Nothing wrong with being political - this is a special interest forum with interests to protect.

Since there is obvious political support from the membership for censorship of clone links, subsequent moderation teams (also this one) have continued with the policy of deletions of such posts. Balancing freedom of speech issues against all the other issues, it would seem the clone link censorship policy is accepted and sensible.

The current case however would extend the censorship from clone links (ability to 'illegally' acquire copyrighted material) to clone participating tournaments which is not the same thing.

The relevent thread is absolutely on the cusp, it's a very fine balance between freedom to report on one side and justifiable opposition to clones on the other. If asked to make a decision, it is this: ultimately it is not for the three moderators to extend the interpretation of the Charter although it is clear that a temporary decision needs to be made. Any action on this thread is fundamentally political (nothing wrong with that) and creates new policy. Creation of policy has to be put through the membership, so I would propose that, in the same way as the membership was polled a few months ago on use of profanity (result = substantial majority was highly offended by it and members decided themselves to respect that fact), membership should be polled for just how far censorship of clone relating reporting should go. I suggest that those elected as new moderators in just over a weeks time make a suitable poll to guage member opinion and in the meantime that the thread in question remains safely tucked away in the mod archives from where it can be restored if deemed sensible at a later date. Ideally a poll could happen right now, but mod elections are apon us, so I'ld suggest waiting until they're done and the new mods take over.

Chris Whittington
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Rolf
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Re: Moderation: Chesslogik 2008 DHC Open (Blitz) Chess

Post by Rolf »

Since you mentioned that progreammers normally resent clones for good reasons IMO let me ask why then it was that for reasons unknown to me (at least) that someone who allegedly had been involved in a clone story or affair was living here and being protected against any kind of even mentioning this affair - if the clone topic is really so deeply seen as indecent or taboo. In other words I want to know why it could happen that such a pro clone guy could play a notable role in CCC st all. Just asking without any names mentioned because I just want to question your statement that 'clone' as such must normally be estimated as something 'evil' or 'wrong' what under no thinkable conditions could be defended or tolerated. In the mentioned affair I had the opposite impression and I never understood why this could have been so.

Since I'm far from being a programmer I wished that experts would realise how strange it comes if lays like me see clones as evil and if then experts make differentiations and suddenly someone so allegedly involved in the clone business is suddenly defended like an untouchable saint. Lay shouldnt be confused with fool so to speak, no? Also lays are able to judge if something comes over consitantly or not.

Q: Is the clones topic honestly be seen as something about evil or not?
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
kranium
Posts: 2129
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 10:43 am

Re: Moderation: Chesslogik 2008 DHC Open (Blitz) Chess

Post by kranium »

chrisw wrote:Well, apparently the thread referred to in the title has been subject to some criticism and disagreement and now languishes in the mod archives awaiting a 'decision' ;-)

having now read it, it seems:

Somebody has published a tournament in which there are apparently some clone engines participating.

The CCC Charter, when written in 1997, made no comments about 'clones' because the issue was not real at that time. Since then the Charter has been interpreted/extended by previous mod teams to take action on posts which promote/provide links to clone engines. There is some justification for this denial of freedom to report (free speech issue) on the grounds of the illegal status of clones (the dubious legality clause in Charter) but it seems to me the real reason is fundamentally political (these forums are by and for engine people and programmers who justificably strongly resent clones being passed off as real work). Nothing wrong with being political - this is a special interest forum with interests to protect.

Since there is obvious political support from the membership for censorship of clone links, subsequent moderation teams (also this one) have continued with the policy of deletions of such posts. Balancing freedom of speech issues against all the other issues, it would seem the clone link censorship policy is accepted and sensible.

The current case however would extend the censorship from clone links (ability to 'illegally' acquire copyrighted material) to clone participating tournaments which is not the same thing.

The relevent thread is absolutely on the cusp, it's a very fine balance between freedom to report on one side and justifiable opposition to clones on the other. If asked to make a decision, it is this: ultimately it is not for the three moderators to extend the interpretation of the Charter although it is clear that a temporary decision needs to be made. Any action on this thread is fundamentally political (nothing wrong with that) and creates new policy. Creation of policy has to be put through the membership, so I would propose that, in the same way as the membership was polled a few months ago on use of profanity (result = substantial majority was highly offended by it and members decided themselves to respect that fact), membership should be polled for just how far censorship of clone relating reporting should go. I suggest that those elected as new moderators in just over a weeks time make a suitable poll to guage member opinion and in the meantime that the thread in question remains safely tucked away in the mod archives from where it can be restored if deemed sensible at a later date. Ideally a poll could happen right now, but mod elections are apon us, so I'ld suggest waiting until they're done and the new mods take over.

Chris Whittington
Chris,
For what it's worth, I find this an extremley well-thought out and expressed response. I thank-you and greatly appreciate your moderate, fair, and open-minded perspective here.

I had a lot of good dialogue and feed-back concerning the proposed tournament during the time it was posted here. I think I have gained a little better understand of the issues and concerns. Because of this, I will not proceed with the tournament 'as is'.

I have been busy all morning rebuilding the tournament and will only run it when i am sure that all particpants are found acceptable by the CCC community and the moderation team.

Sincerely,
Norm
chrisw

Re: Moderation: Chesslogik 2008 DHC Open (Blitz) Chess

Post by chrisw »

Rolf wrote:Since you mentioned that progreammers normally resent clones for good reasons IMO let me ask why then it was that for reasons unknown to me (at least) that someone who allegedly had been involved in a clone story or affair was living here and being protected against any kind of even mentioning this affair - if the clone topic is really so deeply seen as indecent or taboo. In other words I want to know why it could happen that such a pro clone guy could play a notable role in CCC st all. Just asking without any names mentioned because I just want to question your statement that 'clone' as such must normally be estimated as something 'evil' or 'wrong' what under no thinkable conditions could be defended or tolerated. In the mentioned affair I had the opposite impression and I never understood why this could have been so.

Since I'm far from being a programmer I wished that experts would realise how strange it comes if lays like me see clones as evil and if then experts make differentiations and suddenly someone so allegedly involved in the clone business is suddenly defended like an untouchable saint. Lay shouldnt be confused with fool so to speak, no? Also lays are able to judge if something comes over consitantly or not.

Q: Is the clones topic honestly be seen as something about evil or not?
Clones topic is messy. The definitions are loose. Emotions run high. Much is confused in a tangle of obscure technicalities. The previous debate rests, status unfinished. "Clones" topic lies on a grey scale. The evil concept doesn't lend itself to grey scale adaptation.