Avoid Move

rebel777 · Post by **rebel777** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:52 pm

[d]1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - am Rc3;

This is a sub-variation of the game Anand - Rebel 10 (1998). I wonder if any of the nowadays top programs can avoid 1..Rc3 which eventually leads to a draw.

1.. Rc3 2. bxc3 Qc4 3. Bb2 Qxf1+ 4. Qc1 Qxc1+ 5. Bxc1 Rb1+ 6. Kxa2 Rxc1 7. cxd4 Rxc6 8. d7 draw

Or somewhat easier, let your engine return a 0.00 score with 2.bxc3.

BTW, the winning move is 1..R3b4 but that's off-topic for now

Ed

royb · Post by **royb** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:15 pm

rebel777 wrote:[d]1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - am Rc3;

This is a sub-variation of the game Anand - Rebel 10 (1998). I wonder if any of the nowadays top programs can avoid 1..Rc3 which eventually leads to a draw.

1.. Rc3 2. bxc3 Qc4 3. Bb2 Qxf1+ 4. Qc1 Qxc1+ 5. Bxc1 Rb1+ 6. Kxa2 Rxc1 7. cxd4 Rxc6 8. d7 draw

Or somewhat easier, let your engine return a 0.00 score with 2.bxc3.

BTW, the winning move is 1..R3b4 but that's off-topic for now

Ed

Ed - It's great to see you posting here again!

Glaurung 2.2 spots this very quickly (less than 5 seconds) on my single CPU 1.67 GHz ancient hardware running Ubuntu and SCID:

2 -5.03 1.... R3b4 2.d7 a5 (0.32)
2 -5.23 1.... R3b6 2.f5 Qxe5 (0.32)
3 -5.01 1.... R3b6 2.Be4 h6 3.Bh7+ Kf8 (0.32)
4 -3.98 1.... R3b6 2.Rd1 Rb4 3.Rxd4 Rxd4 (0.33)
4 -4.45 1.... a5 2.Be4 h6 3.Qc7 (0.34)
4 -4.96 1.... R3b4 2.Rf3 a5 3.Rc3 Bxc3 4.bxc3 (0.35)
5 -3.72 1.... R3b4 2.h6 g5 3.Be4 f5 4.Bxf5 (0.37)
5 -4.07 1.... a5 2.Rd1 R3b4 3.Rxd4 Rxd4 (0.38)
6 -3.19 1.... a5 2.h6 g5 3.Be4 f5 4.Bxf5 (0.44)
6 -3.72 1.... R3b4 2.h6 g5 3.Be4 f5 4.Bxf5 (0.45)
7 -3.07 1.... R3b4 2.h6 g5 3.Be4 Kf8 4.Bxh7 gxf4 5.Rxf4 Bxb2+ 6.Bxb2 Rxf4 (0.51)
7 -3.41 1.... f6 2.Rd1 R3b4 3.Rxd4 Rxd4 4.Be4 h6 (0.56)
7 -3.49 1.... h6 2.Rd1 R3b4 3.Rxd4 Rxd4 4.Be3 Rdb4 5.Bxa7 (0.60)
8 -3.09 1.... h6 2.Re1 R3b6 3.f5 Qc8 4.Ba4 Qb7 5.Qc7 (0.72)
8 -3.33 1.... f6 2.Rd1 R3b4 3.Rxd4 Rxd4 4.Be4 fxe5 5.fxe5 Qxe5 6.Bxh7+ Kf8 (0.75)
9 -1.68 1.... f6 2.Qg2 Bxb2+ 3.Bxb2 Rxb2 4.Qxb2 Rxb2 5.Kxb2 fxe5 6.d7 Qf6 7.fxe5 Qxe5+ 8.Kxa2 Qd4 (1.80)
9 -3.74 1.... h6 2.d7 R3b4 3.f5 Qxe5 4.f6 Qe6 5.fxg7 Bxg7 6.Qd3 Bd4 (2.10)
10 -2.76 1.... h6 2.d7 R3b4 3.f5 Qxe5 4.f6 gxf6 5.Qg2+ Kh8 6.Bd5 Qe7 7.Bc6 (2.62)
10 -3.39 1.... R3b4 2.Be4 h6 3.Rd1 a6 4.Rxd4 Rxd4 5.Bd2 Rb5 6.b4 (4.50)
11 -3.27 1.... R3b4 2.Be4 h6 3.Rd1 a6 4.Rxd4 Rxd4 5.Bd2 Kf8 6.Qc7 Qb3 (5.25)
12 -4.09 1.... R3b4 2.h6 Qc4 3.Qxc4 Rxc4 4.Kxa2 Rxc6 5.Rd1 Rc4 6.hxg7 Ra4+ 7.Kb1 Rc4 8.Rh1 Rd8 9.Bd2 Kxg7 (8.39)
13 -4.09 1.... R3b4 2.h6 Qc4 3.Qxc4 Rxc4 4.Kxa2 Rxc6 5.Rd1 Rc4 6.hxg7 Kxg7 7.b3 Rc2+ 8.Kb1 Rc4 9.Ka2 (10.95)
14 -4.19 1.... R3b4 2.h6 Qc4 3.Qxc4 Rxc4 4.Kxa2 Rxc6 5.Rd1 gxh6 6.Rxd4 Rxc1 7.Ra4 Rb7 8.Rd4 Rc8 9.Ka3 Kf8 (22.23)
15 -3.27 1.... R3b4 2.Re1 Rc4 3.Qd2 h6 4.Be4 Rcb4 5.Qd3 a5 6.Bh7+ Kf8 7.Qa3 Qc4 8.Bd3 Qd5 9.Qxa2 (40.93)
16 -3.68 1.... R3b4 2.Re1 Rc4 3.Qd2 h6 4.Be4 Kf8 5.Rd1 Qc8 6.Bd3 Rcb4 7.Be4 Qc5 8.Qc2 Qa5 9.Rxd4 Rxd4 (71.08)
17 -3.62 1.... R3b4 2.Re1 Rc4 3.Qd2 h6 4.Be4 Kf8 5.Rd1 f6 6.Bc2 Rcb4 7.Qg2 fxe5 8.fxe5 Bxe5 9.Qd5 Qxd5 10.Rxd5 Bxb2+ 11.Bxb2 Rxb2 (118.58)

Roy

Steve B · Post by **Steve B** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:18 pm

royb wrote: Ed - It's great to see you posting here again!

i second that!
Ed is a true Legend of Computer Chess!
Risc II Regards
Steve

CThinker · Post by **CThinker** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:26 pm

rebel777 wrote:[d]1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - am Rc3;

This is a sub-variation of the game Anand - Rebel 10 (1998). I wonder if any of the nowadays top programs can avoid 1..Rc3 which eventually leads to a draw.

1.. Rc3 2. bxc3 Qc4 3. Bb2 Qxf1+ 4. Qc1 Qxc1+ 5. Bxc1 Rb1+ 6. Kxa2 Rxc1 7. cxd4 Rxc6 8. d7 draw

Or somewhat easier, let your engine return a 0.00 score with 2.bxc3.

BTW, the winning move is 1..R3b4 but that's off-topic for now

Ed

I think no one tests the 'passive' version anymore (the 'inert' version is what testers play with), but here is something from the 'passive' version:

Code: Select all

C:\builds\SP-x86-Passive-Thinker.exe
Thinker: 5.4C (NAM 045, 1500) Copyright (c) Kerwin Medina
Thinker: uqe ueh uml
Thinker: Freeware. No warranties whatsoever.
post
setboard 1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - 
go
move b3b4
14 240 981 12063101 b3b4

I also ran this in the debugger just to see the engine's progress. It actually finds it at depth 7 in milliseconds, and sticks with it.

Neither the 'active' version nor the 'inert' version can find it. Both pick the wrong b3c3.

rebel777 · Post by **rebel777** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:31 pm

Hi Roy, also nice to see again after so many years

The idea of the position is that 1..Rc3 (although looking great at first glance) is losing (not a draw as I said in the initial post) in the end. Now try to find 2.bxc3 with a winning score.

1.. Rc3 2. bxc3 Qc4 3. Bb2 Qxf1+ 4. Qc1 Qxc1+ 5. Bxc1 Rb1+ 6. Kxa2 Rxc1 7. cxd4 Rxc6 8. d7 1-0

I have tried Rybka with 4-processors, 26 plies now and still thinking 2.bxc3 is lost.

It's really an extraordinary position.

Ed

AdminX · Post by **AdminX** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:38 pm

[d]1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - am Rc3;

Analysis by Rybka 3:

1...Rc3 2.bxc3 Qc4[] 3.Rf3 Rb1+[] 4.Qxb1 axb1Q+ 5.Kxb1 Qxc6[] 6.Rd3 Bb6[] 7.d7 Bd8[] 8.Kc2 a5[] 9.Rd4 Qg2+[] 10.Bd2 Kf8 11.Kb3 Ke7 12.f5 Qb7+ 13.Ka3
-+ (-2.94 !) Depth: 6 00:00:00 12kN
-+ (-3.90) Depth: 12 00:00:03 473kN

1...R3b6 2.Be4 Bxb2+ 3.Bxb2 Rxb2 4.Qxb2 Rxb2[] 5.Kxb2 Qc4[] 6.d7 Qd4+ 7.Kxa2 Qxd7[] 8.Rc1 Qa4+ 9.Kb2[] Qb4+ 10.Ka2 g6 11.h6 Qa4+ 12.Kb2[]
-+ (-3.53) Depth: 13 00:00:26 5013kN

-+ (-3.58) Depth: 14 00:00:33 6558kN
1...Qh3 2.Rh1 Rxb2[] 3.Bxb2[] Rxb2 4.Qxb2 Bxb2+ 5.Kxb2 Qd3 6.d7 Kf8 7.Rc1 Ke7 8.Kxa2 Qd2+[] 9.Kb1[] Qb4+ 10.Ka2 Qxf4[] 11.Rc2 Qb4[] 12.Rc1 Qd2+
-+ (-3.89 !) Depth: 14 00:00:35 6807kN
-+ (-4.09) Depth: 19 00:03:40 47857kN, tb=2

Hi Ed,

On my system Deep Rybka 3 64-bit likes Qh3 and stays with it after some 3+ minutes of thought. If Rc3 it played, then Rybka still does not see the drawing line you provide. Your 4. ... Qxc1?? is weak to 4. ... Rxb2!! See key position here:

[d]1r4k1/p4ppp/2BP4/4P2P/3b1P2/2P5/pB6/K1Q2q2 b - - 0 4
Not 4. ... Qxc1?? Winning is 4. ... Rxb2!!

[d]1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/2r5/pPQ5/K1B2R2 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3:

2.bxc3 Qc4[] 3.Bb2 Qxf1+[] 4.Qc1 Rxb2 5.Qxf1[] Bxc3[] 6.Qc4 Rc2+[] 7.Qxc3[] Rxc3 8.Bd7 Rd3 9.Kxa2 Kf8 10.Bf5[] Rd4 11.Bxh7[] Rxf4[] 12.Bd3[] Rd4 13.Bb5[] Rd5 14.Bc4[] Rxe5 15.d7[] Ke7 16.Bxf7[] Kxd7[] 17.Kb3[]
-+ (-3.90) Depth: 11 00:00:00 0kN
-+ (-3.58) Depth: 22 00:07:42 94374kN, tb=18

swami · Post by **swami** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:47 pm

FEN: 1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - 0 1

This is the special version of Bright that's going to take part in CCT this month.

Bright - CCT2009:

Code: Select all

FEN: 1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - 0 1 

Bright - CCT2009:
  1/6	00:00	          18	18	+1.53	Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb3xb2 Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2
  1/6	00:00	          25	25	+1.54	Rb8c8
  1/6	00:00	          42	42	+1.73	a7a5
  2/10	00:00	         334	20	+1.69	a7a5 Rf1d1
  2/14	00:00	       1.837	114	+1.72	f7f6 Bc6e4 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb3xb2 Be4xh7+ Kg8h8
  3/14	00:00	       2.246	140	+1.72	f7f6 Bc6e4 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb3xb2 Be4xh7+ Kg8h8
  4/15	00:00	       4.615	288	+1.72	f7f6 Bc6e4 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb3xb2 Be4xh7+ Kg8h8
  5/19	00:00	      24.375	518	+2.16	f7f6 d6d7 Rb3b6 Bc6e4 Qe6xd7 Qc2c4+ Kg8h8 Qc4xa2 f6xe5 f4xe5 Bd4xe5
  6/21	00:00	      47.371	607	+2.16	f7f6 d6d7 Rb3b6 Bc6e4 Qe6xd7 Qc2c4+ Kg8h8 Qc4xa2 f6xe5 f4xe5 Bd4xe5
  7/24	00:00	     184.514	1.476	+1.79	f7f6 d6d7 Rb3b6 Qc2e4 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb6xc6 Rf1d1 Rb8d8 f4f5
  7/31	00:00	     593.730	2.537	+2.16	Qe6h3 Rf1h1 Rb3xb2 Bc1xb2 Rb8xb2 Qc2xb2 Bd4xb2+ Ka1xb2 Qh3d3 d6d7 Qd3d2+ Kb2a3
  8/31	00:00	     704.153	2.505	+1.98	Qe6h3 Rf1h1 Rb3xb2 Bc1xb2 Rb8xb2 Qc2xb2 Bd4xb2+ Ka1xb2 Qh3d3 d6d7 Qd3d2+ Kb2a3 Qd2a5+ Ka3b2 Kg8f8
  9/31	00:00	   1.530.628	3.061	+1.70	Qe6h3 Rf1h1 Rb3xb2 Bc1xb2 Rb8xb2 Qc2xb2 Bd4xb2+ Ka1xb2 Qh3d3 d6d7 Qd3d2+ Kb2b3 Kg8f8 Rh1a1 Kf8e7 Ra1xa2 Qd2xf4
  9/31	00:00	   2.676.179	3.493	+2.61	Rb3b6 h5h6 Qe6xh6 Bc6g2 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb6xb2 Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2 Qh6e6 Rf1a1 Qe6c4 Ra1xa2 Qc4xf4
  9/33	00:00	   3.194.230	3.650	+2.73	Rb3c3 b2xc3 Qe6c4 Bc1b2 Qc4xf1+ Qc2c1 Qf1xc1+ Bb2xc1 Rb8b1+ Ka1xa2 Rb1xc1 c3xd4 Rc1c2+ Ka2b3 Rc2xc6
 10/33	00:00	   3.578.097	3.692	+2.72	Rb3c3 b2xc3 Qe6c4 Bc1b2 Qc4xf1+ Qc2c1 Qf1xc1+ Bb2xc1 Rb8b1+ Ka1xa2 Rb1xc1 d6d7 Bd4b6 Ka2b3
 10/33	00:01	   4.057.631	3.764	+2.78	Rb3b6 h5h6 Qe6xh6 Ka1xa2 Qh6e6+ Ka2b1 f7f6 Rf1h1 h7h6 Qc2g2 Bd4xb2 Bc1xb2 Qe6f5+ Kb1a2 Rb6xb2+ Qg2xb2 Rb8xb2+ Ka2xb2 f6xe5
 11/41	00:02	   9.436.024	4.107	+2.85	Rb3b6 h5h6 Qe6h3 Rf1d1 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb6xb2 Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2 Qh3h2+ Kb2b3 Qh2e2 Rd1a1 Qe2e3+ Kb3xa2 Qe3f2+ Ka2a3 Qf2c5+ Ka3b3 Qc5b6+ Kb3c3 Qb6xc6+ Kc3d4
 11/41	00:03	  13.552.304	4.336	+3.08	Rb3b4 Bc6e4 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb4xb2 Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2 Qe6c4 d6d7 Qc4b5+ Kb2xa2 Qb5a4+ Ka2b2 Qa4xd7 Kb2c3 Qd7h3+ Be4d3 Qh3xh5
 12/41	00:03	  16.342.692	4.488	+3.05	Rb3b4 Bc6e4 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb4xb2 Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2 Qe6c4 d6d7 Qc4d4+ Kb2xa2 Qd4xd7 Rf1c1 g7g6 Ka2b3 Qd7h3+ Kb3b4 Qh3xh5
 13/42	00:06	  28.694.788	4.637	+2.99	Rb3b4 Bc6e4 Bd4xb2+ Bc1xb2 Rb4xb2 Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2 Qe6c4 d6d7 Qc4d4+ Kb2xa2 Qd4xd7 Ka2a3 f7f6 Rf1c1 f6xe5 f4xe5 Qd7e7+ Ka3b3 Qe7xe5 Rc1c8+ Kg8f7
 14/60	00:12	  62.520.285	4.849	+3.02	Rb3b4 Bc6e4 Rb4xb2 Bc1xb2 Bd4xb2+ Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2 Qe6c4 d6d7 Qc4d4+ Kb2xa2 Qd4xd7 Ka2a3 Qd7h3+ Rf1f3 Qh3xh5 Rf3c3 Qh5g4 f4f5 g7g5 Rc3c8+ Kg8g7
 15/60	00:22	 110.024.059	4.879	+3.26	Rb3b4 Bc6e4 Rb4xb2 Bc1xb2 Bd4xb2+ Qc2xb2 Rb8xb2 Ka1xb2 Qe6c4 d6d7 Qc4d4+ Kb2xa2 Qd4xd7 Ka2a3 Qd7h3+ Rf1f3 Qh3xh5 Ka3b3 g7g5 f4xg5 Qh5xg5 Be4d5 Qg5xe5 Bd5xf7+ Kg8g7
 16/67	01:29	 434.161.756	4.838	+3.03	Rb3b4 Rf1e1 Rb4c4 Qc2d2 Qe6f5 Bc6e4 Rc4xc1+ Qd2xc1 Rb8xb2 Be4xf5 Rb2h2+ Qc1b2 Bd4xb2+ Ka1xa2 Bb2c3+ Re1e2 Rh2xe2+ Ka2b3 Bc3a5 Kb3c4 g7g6 Bf5d3
 17/67	02:36	 769.438.786	4.925	+3.36	Rb3b4 Rf1e1 Rb4c4 Qc2d2 Qe6f5 Bc6e4 Rc4xc1+ Qd2xc1 Rb8xb2 Be4xf5 Rb2g2+ Qc1b2 Bd4xb2+ Ka1xa2 Bb2c3+ Ka2b3 Bc3xe1 d6d7 Be1a5 Kb3c4 Rg2h2 Kc4b5 Ba5d8
 18/72	07:31	2.175.973,013	4.823	+3.46	Rb3b4 Rf1e1 a7a5 f4f5 Rb4xb2 Bc1xb2 Rb8xb2 Qc2xb2 Bd4xb2+ Ka1xb2 Qe6xf5 d6d7 Qf5f2+ Kb2b3 Qf2d2 Kb3c4 Kg8f8 e5e6 Qd2b4+ Kc4d5 f7xe6+ Re1xe6 Kf8f7 d7d8N+ Kf7g8 Re6e8+ Qb4f8 Re8xf8+ Kg8xf8 Nd8e6+ Kf8g8 h5h6 a2a1Q h6xg7

Best,
Swami

AdminX · Post by **AdminX** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:15 pm

rebel777 wrote:Hi Roy, also nice to see again after so many years

The idea of the position is that 1..Rc3 (although looking great at first glance) is losing (not a draw as I said in the initial post) in the end. Now try to find 2.bxc3 with a winning score.

1.. Rc3 2. bxc3 Qc4 3. Bb2 Qxf1+ 4. Qc1 Qxc1+ 5. Bxc1 Rb1+ 6. Kxa2 Rxc1 7. cxd4 Rxc6 8. d7 1-0

I have tried Rybka with 4-processors, 26 plies now and still thinking 2.bxc3 is lost.

It's really an extraordinary position.

Ed

White is lost not Black as you state. Instead of 4. ... Qxc1, Black plays 4. ... Rxb2!! winning.

PauloSoare · Post by **PauloSoare** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:18 pm

Steve B wrote:
royb wrote: Ed - It's great to see you posting here again!
i second that!
Ed is a true Legend of Computer Chess!
Risc II Regards
Steve

Yes, good to see ED posting. He is one of the great names of computer chess.
Better than that only if ED exchanged their ideas for the WCCC.

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:47 pm

CThinker wrote:[I think no one tests the 'passive' version anymore (the 'inert' version is what testers play with), but here is something from the 'passive' version:
Code: Select all
C:\builds\SP-x86-Passive-Thinker.exe
Thinker: 5.4C (NAM 045, 1500) Copyright (c) Kerwin Medina
Thinker: uqe ueh uml
Thinker: Freeware. No warranties whatsoever.
post
setboard 1r4k1/p4ppp/2BPq3/4P2P/3b1P2/1r6/pPQ5/K1B2R2 b - - 
go
move b3b4
14 240 981 12063101 b3b4
I also ran this in the debugger just to see the engine's progress. It actually finds it at depth 7 in milliseconds, and sticks with it.

Neither the 'active' version nor the 'inert' version can find it. Both pick the wrong b3c3.

Hi Lance,
I am very sorry about that

but I do not know how to manage it: Testing 3 different versions of an engine with 1CPU, 2CPU and 4CPU - so I would have 9 different engines of Thinker 5.4C to test

So I took the strongest version against engines

Thank´s for the new version

Avoid Move

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