Computer shogi programs should play better than humans

[pichy]

Considering that a super fast computer can calculate deeper and with a minimum error of margin compared to human, with a good Shogi's Opening Book and an endgame database all that a good Shogi program need to do is outcalculate the human in complex middlegame position ; since in Shogi a human player can typically calculate between 536 possible moves whereas a standard Western chess player typically has to consider only 20 to 30 possible moves, this should benefit more the computer than the human in any middlegame shogi position.

PS: I don't see why human still play better Shogi than Computer, since the number of positions are lesser in Standard chess than Shogi and computer already has surpassed human in standard chess, where the possibilities of blundering are lesser than in Shogi

http://www.hawaii.edu/geog_mr/shogi/efron.htm

[bob]

Considering that a super fast computer can calculate deeper and with a minimum error of margin compared to human, with a good Shogi's Opening Book and an endgame database all that a good Shogi program need to do is outcalculate the human in complex middlegame position ; since in Shogi a human player can typically calculate between 536 possible moves whereas a standard Western chess player typically has to consider only 20 to 30 possible moves, this should benefit more the computer than the human in any middlegame shogi position.

PS: I don't see why human still play better Shogi than Computer, since the number of positions are lesser in Standard chess than Shogi and computer already has surpassed human in standard chess, where the possibilities of blundering are lesser than in Shogi

http://www.hawaii.edu/geog_mr/shogi/efron.htm

The problem is the trees are bushier. Which leads to reduced search depth. Otherwise computers would easily be better at GO than humans, when the reverse is the state of the game today. With very bushy trees, humans are quite good at ignoring the irrelevant parts because they don't have to search as deeply to keep up with the computers. With deep searches as we are seeing in Chess, the humans are simply having a serious problem keeping up without making a mistake.

There will come a day for Shogi and Go, and other bushy games, hardware and software speeds are improving steadily.

[pichy]

Considering that a super fast computer can calculate deeper and with a minimum error of margin compared to human, with a good Shogi's Opening Book and an endgame database all that a good Shogi program need to do is outcalculate the human in complex middlegame position ; since in Shogi a human player can typically calculate between 536 possible moves whereas a standard Western chess player typically has to consider only 20 to 30 possible moves, this should benefit more the computer than the human in any middlegame shogi position.

PS: I don't see why human still play better Shogi than Computer, since the number of positions are lesser in Standard chess than Shogi and computer already has surpassed human in standard chess, where the possibilities of blundering are lesser than in Shogi

http://www.hawaii.edu/geog_mr/shogi/efron.htm

The problem is the trees are bushier. Which leads to reduced search depth. Otherwise computers would easily be better at GO than humans, when the reverse is the state of the game today. With very bushy trees, humans are quite good at ignoring the irrelevant parts because they don't have to search as deeply to keep up with the computers. With deep searches as we are seeing in Chess, the humans are simply having a serious problem keeping up without making a mistake.

There will come a day for Shogi and Go, and other bushy games, hardware and software speeds are improving steadily.

I like this comment by Larry Kaufman which is a leading 4 dan Shogi player:

I don't think the branching factor is the main issue. The key point is
the difficulty of evaluating positions. In checkers, winning material is
everything. In chess, it is dominant, and most other positional factors can
be evaluated by simple rules and summed. In shogi, material is still very
important, but the relative importance of position vs. material varies
greatly thruout the game in ways that are very hard to express in clear,
programmable rules. In Go, even to count who is ahead in "material" (i.e.
points) is very difficult, as it's often very unclear which groups are alive
and which are not. This is why, I believe, that the best pc checker program
is near Championship level, the best chess program at Grandmaster level, the
best Shogi program at 4 Dan level, and the best Go program at perhaps 7-10
kyu level. The branching factor is a minor consideration, since a larger
branching factor makes the game more difficult for both human and computer,
and also because the computer partially compensates by using the Alpha-Beta
algorithm.

I do agree that the success of computers (and Deep Blue's victory in
particular) in chess should tend to increase the popularity of shogi vs.
chess, especially since shogi programs are now good enough to be sparring
partners for the average player without being a threat to professionals for
the foreseeable future. I think that whoever wishes to convert chess
players to shogi should point to the superiority of humans over computers in
shogi as evidence that shogi is more of a creative, imaginitive game than
chess, which is more of a logical exercise.

> Incidentally, drops are not the only reason shogi is harder to program than
>chess. There are fewer long-range pieces and and slightly larger board.
> This means that there are a greater number of variations to reach any given
>position, and that it will be harder to filter out these variations for
>selective searches.

Actually, if there are in fact more ways to reach a given position in
shogi, that should make it easier for the computer because of Hash Tables,
which deal well with transpositions. Also I think selective search will
work better in Shogi than in chess, precisely because there are more silly
moves to prune out. Despite these points, the evaluation issue is the
reason I consider Habu safe from computers for at least twenty years.
>
>Ben Bednarz, Salem, OR
>
>


Larry Kaufman, 301-309-0904, 9213 Wooden Bridge Road, Potomac, Md. 20854

[pichy]

Considering that a super fast computer can calculate deeper and with a minimum error of margin compared to human, with a good Shogi's Opening Book and an endgame database all that a good Shogi program need to do is outcalculate the human in complex middlegame position ; since in Shogi a human player can typically calculate between 536 possible moves whereas a standard Western chess player typically has to consider only 20 to 30 possible moves, this should benefit more the computer than the human in any middlegame shogi position.

PS: I don't see why human still play better Shogi than Computer, since the number of positions are lesser in Standard chess than Shogi and computer already has surpassed human in standard chess, where the possibilities of blundering are lesser than in Shogi

http://www.hawaii.edu/geog_mr/shogi/efron.htm

The problem is the trees are bushier. Which leads to reduced search depth. Otherwise computers would easily be better at GO than humans, when the reverse is the state of the game today. With very bushy trees, humans are quite good at ignoring the irrelevant parts because they don't have to search as deeply to keep up with the computers. With deep searches as we are seeing in Chess, the humans are simply having a serious problem keeping up without making a mistake.

There will come a day for Shogi and Go, and other bushy games, hardware and software speeds are improving steadily.

I like this comment by Larry Kaufman which is a leading 4 dan Shogi player:

I don't think the branching factor is the main issue. The key point is
the difficulty of evaluating positions. In checkers, winning material is
everything. In chess, it is dominant, and most other positional factors can
be evaluated by simple rules and summed. In shogi, material is still very
important, but the relative importance of position vs. material varies
greatly thruout the game in ways that are very hard to express in clear,
programmable rules. In Go, even to count who is ahead in "material" (i.e.
points) is very difficult, as it's often very unclear which groups are alive
and which are not. This is why, I believe, that the best pc checker program
is near Championship level, the best chess program at Grandmaster level, the
best Shogi program at 4 Dan level, and the best Go program at perhaps 7-10
kyu level. The branching factor is a minor consideration, since a larger
branching factor makes the game more difficult for both human and computer,
and also because the computer partially compensates by using the Alpha-Beta
algorithm.

I do agree that the success of computers (and Deep Blue's victory in
particular) in chess should tend to increase the popularity of shogi vs.
chess, especially since shogi programs are now good enough to be sparring
partners for the average player without being a threat to professionals for
the foreseeable future. I think that whoever wishes to convert chess
players to shogi should point to the superiority of humans over computers in
shogi as evidence that shogi is more of a creative, imaginitive game than
chess, which is more of a logical exercise.

> Incidentally, drops are not the only reason shogi is harder to program than
>chess. There are fewer long-range pieces and and slightly larger board.
> This means that there are a greater number of variations to reach any given
>position, and that it will be harder to filter out these variations for
>selective searches.

Actually, if there are in fact more ways to reach a given position in
shogi, that should make it easier for the computer because of Hash Tables,
which deal well with transpositions. Also I think selective search will
work better in Shogi than in chess, precisely because there are more silly
moves to prune out. Despite these points, the evaluation issue is the
reason I consider Habu safe from computers for at least twenty years.
>
>Ben Bednarz, Salem, OR
>
>


Larry Kaufman, 301-309-0904, 9213 Wooden Bridge Road, Potomac, Md. 20854

PS: This was Larry Kaufman point of view more than 10 years ago, since then Chinok reached a level that no human can ever win a single game against it, and Rybka, Naum, Deep Fritz and Deep Shredder are way better than any grandmaster

[Bill Rogers]

I think that there is one fact that most people still overlook. Years ago someone compared how computer search and the depth that they could reach but humans still outplayed them. When asked why it was noted that humans recognize specific patters and thus don't have to calculate deep as they already know the strategy for different patterns to play.
In shogi pattern matching is even more important than in chess therefore I believe chess will solved long before shogi will.
Just my opinion.
Bill

[pichy]

Considering that a super fast computer can calculate deeper and with a minimum error of margin compared to human, with a good Shogi's Opening Book and an endgame database all that a good Shogi program need to do is outcalculate the human in complex middlegame position ; since in Shogi a human player can typically calculate between 536 possible moves whereas a standard Western chess player typically has to consider only 20 to 30 possible moves, this should benefit more the computer than the human in any middlegame shogi position.

PS: I don't see why human still play better Shogi than Computer, since the number of positions are lesser in Standard chess than Shogi and computer already has surpassed human in standard chess, where the possibilities of blundering are lesser than in Shogi

http://www.hawaii.edu/geog_mr/shogi/efron.htm

The problem is the trees are bushier. Which leads to reduced search depth. Otherwise computers would easily be better at GO than humans, when the reverse is the state of the game today. With very bushy trees, humans are quite good at ignoring the irrelevant parts because they don't have to search as deeply to keep up with the computers. With deep searches as we are seeing in Chess, the humans are simply having a serious problem keeping up without making a mistake.

There will come a day for Shogi and Go, and other bushy games, hardware and software speeds are improving steadily.

It will happen, but NOT too soon, probably in the next 20 years.

http://www.anusha.com/times-go.htm

http://www.computerworld.com/action/art ... leId=68505

[Kirill Kryukov]

Considering that a super fast computer can calculate deeper and with a minimum error of margin compared to human, with a good Shogi's Opening Book and an endgame database all that a good Shogi program need to do is outcalculate the human in complex middlegame position

Let's not forget that in shogi there is no "endgame" in the same sense like in chess. In chess each capture removes a piece from the game, so a 6-men ending can convert to a 5-men, but not the other way around. In shogi this is not the case. A capture does remove a piece from the board, but not from the game. So a shogi game has 40 pieces ALWAYS, from starting position till the checkmate.

This makes the whole idea of using endgame tablebases void in shogi. Luckily for us humans.

; since in Shogi a human player can typically calculate between 536 possible moves whereas a standard Western chess player typically has to consider only 20 to 30 possible moves, this should benefit more the computer than the human in any middlegame shogi position.

PS: I don't see why human still play better Shogi than Computer, since the number of positions are lesser in Standard chess than Shogi and computer already has surpassed human in standard chess, where the possibilities of blundering are lesser than in Shogi

http://www.hawaii.edu/geog_mr/shogi/efron.htm

[hgm]

The main problem in programming Shogi is that there are no quiet positions. Capture search does not work to quiet down positions, as they bring piecs in hand, where they often are even more dangerous than attackers of a hanging piece.

So you have to evaluate positions with many hanging pieces on both sides.