Can the best Shogi engine give odds to the human shogi champion ?

[Chessqueen]

Can the best Shogi engine give odds to the human shogi champion, and if you were to compare it to Chess would they be at GM strength

[lkaufman]

Can the best Shogi engine give odds to the human shogi champion, and if you were to compare it to Chess would they be at GM strength

The top shogi engine is rated more than a thousand elo above the top human player, Fujii, who is even more dominant than Carlsen in chess. I haven't heard of any official handicap games between top engines and top pros, but based on my own experience playing handicap games with top pros and a top recent engine, I would estimate that the engine could give the top pros bishop handicap with reasonably balanced chances, at least at any reasonably rapid time limit like say an hour each plus a minute per move if time runs out. I was generally competitive with top pros with a rook handicap, whereas I need rook + bishop to have good chances against top engine, so you see why I make this statement. Also, some tests I made indicate that a bishop handicap in shogi, while huge, is less than a thousand elo handicap at engine level. It's hard to compare chess and shogi handicaps, but I would say that bishop handicap in shogi is less than knight odds in chess, but not a lot less. The bishop is the second strongest piece in shogi, but you can't simplify the game by exchanges.

[Chessqueen]

Can the best Shogi engine give odds to the human shogi champion, and if you were to compare it to Chess would they be at GM strength

The top shogi engine is rated more than a thousand elo above the top human player, Fujii, who is even more dominant than Carlsen in chess. I haven't heard of any official handicap games between top engines and top pros, but based on my own experience playing handicap games with top pros and a top recent engine, I would estimate that the engine could give the top pros bishop handicap with reasonably balanced chances, at least at any reasonably rapid time limit like say an hour each plus a minute per move if time runs out. I was generally competitive with top pros with a rook handicap, whereas I need rook + bishop to have good chances against top engine, so you see why I make this statement. Also, some tests I made indicate that a bishop handicap in shogi, while huge, is less than a thousand elo handicap at engine level. It's hard to compare chess and shogi handicaps, but I would say that bishop handicap in shogi is less than knight odds in chess, but not a lot less. The bishop is the second strongest piece in shogi, but you can't simplify the game by exchanges.

I believe that the only Shogi champion that could take a Knight Odds from Komodo Dragon2 might be HABU, but he will lose a 6 games Knight odds versus Komodo

[lkaufman]

Can the best Shogi engine give odds to the human shogi champion, and if you were to compare it to Chess would they be at GM strength

The top shogi engine is rated more than a thousand elo above the top human player, Fujii, who is even more dominant than Carlsen in chess. I haven't heard of any official handicap games between top engines and top pros, but based on my own experience playing handicap games with top pros and a top recent engine, I would estimate that the engine could give the top pros bishop handicap with reasonably balanced chances, at least at any reasonably rapid time limit like say an hour each plus a minute per move if time runs out. I was generally competitive with top pros with a rook handicap, whereas I need rook + bishop to have good chances against top engine, so you see why I make this statement. Also, some tests I made indicate that a bishop handicap in shogi, while huge, is less than a thousand elo handicap at engine level. It's hard to compare chess and shogi handicaps, but I would say that bishop handicap in shogi is less than knight odds in chess, but not a lot less. The bishop is the second strongest piece in shogi, but you can't simplify the game by exchanges.

I believe that the only Shogi champion that could take a Knight Odds from Komodo Dragon2 might be HABU, but he will lose a 6 games Knight odds versus Komodo

Habu gave me a bishop handicap in a shogi game in the mid 1980s and beat me. He was the dominant shogi player for more than two decades starting around 1990, and was also the top chess player in Japan for much of this time. Currently he is rated number 6 in shogi and number 2 in chess in Japan. I suspect that he would be a tougher opponent for Dragon in chess at knight odds than a typical 2400 rated player would be, since his relative lack of opening knowledge wouldn't be a problem.

[Chessqueen]

Can the best Shogi engine give odds to the human shogi champion, and if you were to compare it to Chess would they be at GM strength

The top shogi engine is rated more than a thousand elo above the top human player, Fujii, who is even more dominant than Carlsen in chess. I haven't heard of any official handicap games between top engines and top pros, but based on my own experience playing handicap games with top pros and a top recent engine, I would estimate that the engine could give the top pros bishop handicap with reasonably balanced chances, at least at any reasonably rapid time limit like say an hour each plus a minute per move if time runs out. I was generally competitive with top pros with a rook handicap, whereas I need rook + bishop to have good chances against top engine, so you see why I make this statement. Also, some tests I made indicate that a bishop handicap in shogi, while huge, is less than a thousand elo handicap at engine level. It's hard to compare chess and shogi handicaps, but I would say that bishop handicap in shogi is less than knight odds in chess, but not a lot less. The bishop is the second strongest piece in shogi, but you can't simplify the game by exchanges.

Do you know IM Christian Seel also a Shogi player

[lkaufman]

Can the best Shogi engine give odds to the human shogi champion, and if you were to compare it to Chess would they be at GM strength

The top shogi engine is rated more than a thousand elo above the top human player, Fujii, who is even more dominant than Carlsen in chess. I haven't heard of any official handicap games between top engines and top pros, but based on my own experience playing handicap games with top pros and a top recent engine, I would estimate that the engine could give the top pros bishop handicap with reasonably balanced chances, at least at any reasonably rapid time limit like say an hour each plus a minute per move if time runs out. I was generally competitive with top pros with a rook handicap, whereas I need rook + bishop to have good chances against top engine, so you see why I make this statement. Also, some tests I made indicate that a bishop handicap in shogi, while huge, is less than a thousand elo handicap at engine level. It's hard to compare chess and shogi handicaps, but I would say that bishop handicap in shogi is less than knight odds in chess, but not a lot less. The bishop is the second strongest piece in shogi, but you can't simplify the game by exchanges.

Do you know IM Christian Seel also a Shogi player

No, I didn't know that, but several titled chess players now play shogi, most notably Peter Heine Nielsen, Carlsen's trainer. But in the last century when I was most active in shogi, I was the only IM (or GM) who played shogi at a serious level, although I did teach several GMs to play.

[lkaufman]

I just got word from a Japanese shogi friend that some shogi pros (grandmasters in chess parlance) have admitted to losing to top shogi software in unofficial games despite receiving bishop handicap, just as I suspected. But I don't know if they were top pros or how fast or slow the games were played.