Kamsky-Guelfand (M5)

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Marc MP

Kamsky-Guelfand (M5)

Post by Marc MP »

It is a book move apparently but will your favorite engine play 11...d5! by its own?

[d]rnr3k1/pp1qppbp/3p1np1/8/2PNP3/1PN2P2/P5PP/R1BQ1RK1 b - - 0 1

[Event "WCh Candidates Finals"]
[Site "Elista RUS"]
[Date "2007.06.11"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Kamsky,G"]
[Black "Gelfand,B"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2705"]
[BlackElo "2733"]
[EventDate "2007.06.06"]
[ECO "B52"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 g6 7. O-O Bg7
8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 O-O 10. f3 Rc8 11. b3 d5 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nxd5 e6 14.
Bh6 exd5 15. Bxg7 Kxg7 16. c5 Na6 17. Nc2 Nxc5 18. Qd4+ f6 19. Ne3 Ne6 20.
Qh4 Rc5 21. Rad1 d4 22. Ng4 Rf8 23. Rfe1 Rh5 24. Qg3 Rd5 25. Rd2 Qd6 26.
Qh4 h5 27. Nf2 g5 28. Qe4 Re5 29. Qb1 Rxe1+ 30. Qxe1 Rd8 31. g3 Nc5 32. Qe2
a5 33. Qb5 b6 34. a3 Qe6 35. Rb2 d3 36. b4 axb4 37. axb4 Nb3 38. Qa4 Nd4
39. Kg2 Nc2 40. Rxc2 dxc2 41. Qxc2 g4 42. fxg4 hxg4 43. Kg1 Rd4 44. Qc7+
Kg6 45. Qc2+ f5 46. Qc3 Rc4 47. Qd2 Kh7 48. h3 gxh3 49. Nxh3 Qc6 50. Qe3
Rc1+ 51. Kf2 Qc2+ 52. Kf3 Rf1+ 53. Nf2 Rxf2+ 0-1
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Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Re: Kamsky-Guelfand (M5)

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Marc MP wrote:It is a book move apparently but will your favorite engine play 11...d5! by its own?

[d]rnr3k1/pp1qppbp/3p1np1/8/2PNP3/1PN2P2/P5PP/R1BQ1RK1 b - - 0 1

[Event "WCh Candidates Finals"]
[Site "Elista RUS"]
[Date "2007.06.11"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Kamsky,G"]
[Black "Gelfand,B"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2705"]
[BlackElo "2733"]
[EventDate "2007.06.06"]
[ECO "B52"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bb5+ Bd7 4. Bxd7+ Qxd7 5. c4 Nf6 6. Nc3 g6 7. O-O Bg7
8. d4 cxd4 9. Nxd4 O-O 10. f3 Rc8 11. b3 d5 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nxd5 e6 14.
Bh6 exd5 15. Bxg7 Kxg7 16. c5 Na6 17. Nc2 Nxc5 18. Qd4+ f6 19. Ne3 Ne6 20.
Qh4 Rc5 21. Rad1 d4 22. Ng4 Rf8 23. Rfe1 Rh5 24. Qg3 Rd5 25. Rd2 Qd6 26.
Qh4 h5 27. Nf2 g5 28. Qe4 Re5 29. Qb1 Rxe1+ 30. Qxe1 Rd8 31. g3 Nc5 32. Qe2
a5 33. Qb5 b6 34. a3 Qe6 35. Rb2 d3 36. b4 axb4 37. axb4 Nb3 38. Qa4 Nd4
39. Kg2 Nc2 40. Rxc2 dxc2 41. Qxc2 g4 42. fxg4 hxg4 43. Kg1 Rd4 44. Qc7+
Kg6 45. Qc2+ f5 46. Qc3 Rc4 47. Qd2 Kh7 48. h3 gxh3 49. Nxh3 Qc6 50. Qe3
Rc1+ 51. Kf2 Qc2+ 52. Kf3 Rf1+ 53. Nf2 Rxf2+ 0-1
Hello Marc,

I think this position is just complicated to calculate any definitive variation, maybe that is precisely why it is played by Gelfand as a surprise weapon?. Some Toga Checkovs play it but it can depend on the amount of hash you start with, and if the eval drops a few points, the engine can choose a different move and not go back to playing 11...d5. The eval is about a draw in some cases so it certainly has the potential to equalize if that is a correct value for the move.

For instance here Toga Checkov narrowly chooses 11...Nc6, but did stick to 11...d5 for a long time

rnr3k1/pp1qppbp/3p1np1/8/2PNP3/1PN2P2/P5PP/R1BQ1RK1 b - -

Engine: Toga 1.3 "Checkov" 2k11 (256 MB)
gemaakt door Thomas Gaksch and Fabien Letouzey


11/26 0:01 -0.16 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 e6
14.Pdb5 Td8 15.c5 dxc5 16.Dxd7 Txd7
17.Lxc5 (1.061.692) 740

12/28 0:02 -0.20 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 Lxd4
14.Lxd4 Pxd4 15.Dxd4 Pf4 16.De3 e5
17.Tcd1 a6 18.Pd5 Pxd5 19.Txd5 (2.210.574) 745

13/33 0:08 -0.14 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 e6
14.Pxc6 Txc6 15.Dd3 a6 16.f4 b5
17.cxb5 Txc3 18.Txc3 Lxc3 19.Dxc3 axb5 (6.456.302) 747

14/33 0:16 -0.22 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 e6
14.Pxc6 Txc6 15.Dd3 Tac8 16.f4 Lxc3
17.Dxc3 b5 18.f5 exf5 19.exf5 (12.677.028) 745

15/35 0:34 -0.19 11...Pc6 12.Le3 a6 13.a4 e6 14.Dd2 De7
15.Pxc6 Txc6 16.Ld4 Tac8 17.a5 Dd8
18.Le3 Pd7 19.Dd3 Lxc3 20.Dxc3 (25.649.003) 742

16/41 1:10 -0.22 11...Pc6 12.Le3 a6 13.Dd3 e6 14.Pxc6 Txc6
15.Ld4 Ph5 16.Lxg7 Pxg7 17.f4 Dc7
18.Pe2 b5 19.cxb5 Db6+ 20.Pd4 axb5 (52.647.066) 741

17/44 3:27 -0.25 11...Pc6 12.Le3 a6 13.Dd3 e6 14.Pxc6 Txc6
15.Ld4 Ph5 16.Lxg7 Pxg7 17.Tad1 Dc7
18.Pe2 Db6+ 19.Dd4 Da5 20.Td2 Ph5
21.Pc3 (154.370.282) 743

18/51 9:22 -0.25 11...Pc6 12.Le3 a6 13.Dd2 Dd8
14.Tfd1 Da5 15.Tab1 Pe5 16.Pde2 Db4
17.Pf4 e6 18.Db2 Pfd7 19.a3 Dxc3
20.Dxc3 Pxf3+ 21.gxf3 Lxc3 22.Txd6 (415.619.932) 738

18/53 15:15 -0.11 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Dd4+ Kg8 19.Tfd1 cxb3
20.axb3 Pc6 21.Dd5 De6 22.Dxe6 fxe6
23.Pxb7 (686.416.725) 749

19/53 16:58 -0.18 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Pxb7 Dxd1 19.Tfxd1 Txd1+
20.Txd1 cxb3 21.axb3 Pc6 22.Kf2 Tb8
23.Pc5 Pe5 24.Ke3 (770.380.802) 756

20/53 22:54 -0.31 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Pxb7 Dxd1 19.Tfxd1 Txd1+
20.Txd1 cxb3 21.axb3 Pc6 22.Kf2 Tb8
23.Pc5 Pa5 24.Td7 Pxb3 (1.051.146.720) 764

20/55 35:20 -0.27 11...Pc6 12.Le3 a6 13.Pxc6 Txc6
14.Ld4 Ph5 15.Lxg7 Pxg7 16.a4 e6
17.f4 Dc7 18.Dd4 Td8 19.Tad1 Tc5
20.f5 exf5 21.Pd5 Pe6 22.Pxc7 Pxd4
23.Txd4 Txc7 24.exf5 (1.599.911.404) 754

21/55 92:40 -0.27 11...Pc6 12.Le3 a6 13.Pxc6 Txc6
14.Ld4 Ph5 15.Lxg7 Pxg7 16.a4 e6
17.f4 Dc7 18.Dd4 Td8 19.Tad1 Tc5
20.Td3 Db6 21.f5 e5 22.Df2 Dxb3
23.fxg6 fxg6 (4.170.036.900) 749

If I take Toga Checkov 2k but lower Material to 95 the eval of 11...d5 is just a little bit higher and I think this one will keep it:


rnr3k1/pp1qppbp/3p1np1/8/2PNP3/1PN2P2/P5PP/R1BQ1RK1 b - -

Engine: Toga 1.3 "Checkov" 2k II (256 MB)
gemaakt door Thomas Gaksch and Fabien Letouzey

11/26 0:01 -0.08 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 Le5
14.Dd2 e6 15.Tcd1 De7 16.f4 Pxd4
17.Lxd4 (1.119.128) 740

12/27 0:02 -0.16 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 Le5
14.Dd2 e6 15.Tcd1 a6 16.Pxc6 Txc6
17.Dc2 Pf4 (2.062.410) 745

13/32 0:05 -0.18 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 Pxd4
14.Lxd4 Lh6 15.Tc2 e6 16.Pe2 Lg5
17.Dd3 Pf6 18.f4 (4.239.175) 736

14/33 0:11 -0.18 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 Le5
14.Pxc6 Txc6 15.Dd2 Pf6 16.De2 a6
17.Tfd1 Tac8 18.Tc2 Lxc3 19.Txc3 (8.377.700) 736

15/35 0:34 -0.25 11...Pc6 12.Le3 Ph5 13.Tc1 Le5
14.Dd2 Lxd4 15.Lxd4 Pxd4 16.Dxd4 Pf4
17.De3 e5 18.Tcd1 Tc6 19.Pb5 De7 (25.626.888) 732

15/35 1:03 -0.24 11...a6 12.Dd3 Dc7 13.Le3 Pbd7
14.Dd2 e6 15.Tfd1 b5 16.Pcxb5 axb5
17.Pxb5 Dd8 18.Pxd6 Tc6 19.Db4 Pe5 (46.471.728) 733

16/39 1:47 -0.22 11...a6 12.Dd3 Dc7 13.Le3 Pbd7
14.Dd2 Da5 15.Tfc1 Pe5 16.Tc2 Tc5
17.Td1 e6 18.Lf4 Pfd7 19.Lxe5 Pxe5 (79.587.323) 741

17/43 3:31 -0.22 11...a6 12.Dd3 Pc6 13.Le3 Dd8
14.Pxc6 Txc6 15.Pd5 Pxd5 16.exd5 Tcc8
17.Tac1 Dd7 18.Tc2 b5 19.Td1 Le5
20.Tdc1 Tc7 21.cxb5 Txc2 22.Txc2 axb5 (155.944.496) 736

18/43 7:19 -0.20 11...a6 12.Dd3 Pc6 13.Le3 e6 14.Pxc6 Txc6
15.Tad1 Dc7 16.Pe2 Pd7 17.Ld4 b5
18.Lxg7 Kxg7 19.Pd4 bxc4 20.Dc3 Db6
21.bxc4 (323.010.123) 735

18/53 10:45 -0.11 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Dd4+ Kg8 19.Tfd1 cxb3
20.axb3 Pc6 21.Df6 De6 22.Dxe6 fxe6
23.Pxb7 (484.435.787) 750

19/54 13:22 -0.07 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Dd4+ Kg8 19.Tfd1 cxb3
20.axb3 Pc6 21.Df6 De6 22.Dxe6 fxe6
23.Pxb7 Td5 (609.146.693) 759

20/54 19:12 -0.09 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Dd4+ Kg8 19.Tfd1 cxb3
20.axb3 Pc6 21.Dd5 Tac8 22.Dc4 Pe5
23.Df4 Tc6 24.Dxe5 Txd6 (884.338.736) 767



Eelco
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Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Re: Kamsky-Guelfand (M5)

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Two ply deeper, still holding, but the eval is going down a bit:


21/59 31:14 -0.22 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Pxb7 Dxd1 19.Tfxd1 Txd1+
20.Txd1 cxb3 21.axb3 Pc6 22.Td7 Te8
23.Pc5 Te7 24.Td6 Pb4 (1.439.934.932) 768

22/77 80:53 -0.28 11...d5 12.exd5 Pxd5 13.Pxd5 e6
14.Lh6 exd5 15.Lxg7 Kxg7 16.Pb5 dxc4
17.Pd6 Td8 18.Pxb7 Dxd1 19.Tfxd1 Txd1+
20.Txd1 cxb3 21.axb3 Pc6 22.Td7 Te8
23.Pc5 Te7 24.Td6 Tc7 (3.733.595.890) 769
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AdminX
Posts: 6363
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Location: Acworth, GA

Re: Kamsky-Guelfand (M5)

Post by AdminX »

Yeah, It's a shame too, I really wanted Kamsky to win their match. :roll: Oh well. No come back for Kamsky today...
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
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Marc MP

Re: Kamsky-Guelfand (M5)

Post by Marc MP »

Hi Eelco,

11...d5 might be a good move although the position is still unclear afterwards. ChessTiger 2007.1 seems to like it:

Code: Select all

00:00:00.0	0.28	1	8	Nc6 
00:00:00.0	-0.14	2	139	Nc6 Bb2 Ne5 
00:00:00.0	-0.32	3	537	Nc6 Bb2 Ne5 
00:00:00.0	-0.28	3	837	Qc7 Bb2 Nc6 
00:00:00.0	-0.22	4	1473	Qc7 Bb2 Nc6 Nd5 Nxd5 exd5 Bxd4+ Bxd4 Nxd4 
00:00:00.0	-0.26	5	3107	Qc7 Bb2 Qc5 Nd5 Nc6 
00:00:00.0	-0.18	5	4726	Nc6 Bb2 Rd8 Nd5 Ne5 
00:00:00.0	-0.18	6	5465	Nc6 Bb2 Rd8 Nd5 Ne5 
00:00:00.0	-0.38	7	15205	Nc6 Bb2 Ne8 Nd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Nc7 
00:00:00.0	-0.38	8	25725	Nc6 Bb2 Ne8 Nd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Nc7 
00:00:00.1	-0.38	9	54878	Nc6 Bb2 Ne8 Nd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Nc7 Bxg7 Kxg7 
00:00:00.2	-0.30	10	129349	Nc6 Bb2 Ne8 Nxc6 bxc6 Qd2 a6 Rfd1 Nf6 
00:00:00.4	-0.34	11	265071	Nc6 Be3 a6 Qd2 Qd8 Nd5 Nxd5 exd5 Ne5 
00:00:00.7	-0.28	11	428055	Ne8 Bb2 Nc6 Nxc6 bxc6 Qd2 a6 Qf4 Be5 Qe3 Nf6 
00:00:00.8	-0.40	12	510791	Ne8 Bb2 Nc6 Nd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 e6 Ne3 Nf6 Bb2 Qe7 
00:00:01.1	-0.28	12	678233	Nc6 Bb2 Ne8 Nd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 e6 Ne3 Nf6 Bb2 Qe7 
00:00:01.7	-0.38	13	1070832	Nc6 Bb2 Nxd4 Qxd4 Ng4 Qd3 Ne5 Qc2 Rc5 Nd5 Qe6 Qe2 Rac8 
00:00:02.8	-0.34	13	1769003	Rc5 Bb2 Nc6 Nd5 Nxd5 exd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Ra5 Bxg7 Kxg7 
00:00:03.7	-0.48	14	2284619	Rc5 Bb2 Nc6 Nd5 Nxd5 exd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Ra5 Qd2 Bxd4+ Qxd4 Ra3 
00:00:04.3	-0.30	14	2710747	Nc6 Bb2 a6 Re1 b5 Nd5 Nxd5 cxd5 Ne5 
00:00:06.0	-0.36	15	3716718	Nc6 Bb2 a6 Nd5 Nxd5 exd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 e5 dxe6ep fxe6 Bxg7 Kxg7 Qd4+ Kf7 
00:00:11.0	-0.38	16	6827014	Nc6 Bb2 Rd8 Nd5 Nxd5 cxd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Bh6 a3 Bf4 g3 Be5 Bxe5 dxe5 
00:00:17.6	-0.32	16	11099078	Qc7 Be3 Nc6 Qd2 Qd8 Nd5 Nd7 Qf2 Nc5 Rab1 a6 Nxc6 Rxc6 Bg5 f6 
00:00:24.0	-0.36	17	15112742	Qc7 Be3 Nc6 Qd2 Qd8 Nd5 Nd7 Rab1 a6 Qf2 Nde5 Bg5 Rab8 Nxc6 
00:00:40.8	-0.32	18	25784466	Qc7 Be3 Nc6 Qd2 Qd8 Nd5 Nd7 Rac1 a6 Qf2 Nc5 Nxc6 Rxc6 Bg5 f6 
00:01:06.7	-0.32	19	42093438	Qc7 Be3 Nc6 Qd2 Qd8 Nd5 Nd7 Rac1 Nc5 Rfd1 a6 Nxc6 Rxc6 Bd4 
00:01:56.7	-0.32	20	73805938	Qc7 Be3 Nc6 Qd2 Qd8 Nd5 Nd7 Rac1 a5 Qf2 Ra6 a3 a4 Nxc6 bxc6 Nb4 Ra5 
00:03:47.9	-0.32	21	144364648	Qc7 Be3 Nc6 Qd2 Qd8 Nd5 Nd7 Rab1 Nxd4 Bxd4 Bxd4+ Qxd4 Rc5 Qf2 Ne5 a3 Rac8 Rfd1 Ra5 
00:04:59.4	-0.28	21	189888018	Nc6 Bb2 a6 Nd5 Nxd5 exd5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Bxd4+ Qxd4 b5 Rac1 bxc4 Rxc4 e5 Rxc8+ Rxc8 Qb6 Rc5 Qb8+ Kg7 

00:05:43.6	-0.14	21	219075173	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 exd5 Bxg7 Kxg7 cxd5 Qxd5 Ne2 Qe5 Qd2 Nc6 Rfd1 

00:06:28.1	-0.02	22	250175297	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 exd5 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nb5 dxc4 Nd6 Rc7 Nxc4 Nc6 Qxd7 Rxd7 Rfd1 

00:07:14.4	-0.12	23	281575381	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 exd5 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nb5 a6 Na3 Qe7 Qd4+ Kg8 Qb2 Nc6 

00:09:09.9	-0.10	24	362617619	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 exd5 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nb5 dxc4 Nd6 Rc7 Re1 Nc6 bxc4 Kg8 c5 Ne7 Qd4 Rd8 

00:12:22.7	-0.14	25	499467506	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 exd5 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nb5 a6 Na3 Qe7 Qd4+ Kg8 Qb2 Nc6 Rad1 dxc4 Nxc4 Rd8 

00:21:04.2	-0.12	26	876151240	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 Bh8 Rc1 exd5 cxd5 Rxc1 Bxc1 Qxd5 Bb2 Bxd4+ Bxd4 Nc6 Bb2 Qc5+ Rf2 Rd8 

00:40:45.8	-0.06	27	1757340275	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 exd5 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nb5 a6 Qd4+ f6 Na3 dxc4 Qxd7+ Nxd7 Rad1 Rc7 Nxc4 b5 Nd6 Ne5 

01:16:33.5	-0.12	28	3409042009	d5 exd5 Nxd5 Nxd5 e6 Bh6 exd5 Bxg7 Kxg7 Nb5 a6 Qd4+ f6 Na3 dxc4 Qxd7+ Nxd7 Nxc4 b5 Nd6 Rc3 Rfe1 Ne5
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