simple? pawn ending

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BBauer
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:58 pm

simple? pawn ending

Post by BBauer »

Hallo,

this position is easy for rybka, however some other programs have difficulties to see the win.
[d]3k4/8/1Pp5/3P2p1/4K1Pp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

looks like crafty has special knowlage. My version plays Ke3 which differs from most others.
kind regards
Bernhard
Chris Taylor

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by Chris Taylor »

[quote="BBauer"]Hallo,

this position is easy for rybka, however some other programs have difficulties to see the win.
[D]3k4/8/1Pp5/3P2p1/4K1Pp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

looks like crafty has special knowlage. My version plays Ke3 which differs from most others.
kind regards
Bernhard[/quote]

Hi

Whilst watching the golf here is what my Centrino did


3k4/8/1Pp5/3P2p1/4K1Pp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Hiarcs 7.32:

1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Kf2 Kc8 4.b7+ Kb8 5.Kg2 Kc7 6.Kf3 Kb8
+- (3.89) Depth: 18/31 00:04:37 105mN, tb=11328
(, 21.07.2007)



3k4/8/1Pp5/3P2p1/4K1Pp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by CM10th Default:

1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 h2 4.d7+ Kb7 5.d8Q h1Q 6.Qc7+ Ka6 7.Qa7+ Kb5 8.b7 Qd5+ 9.Kf6 Qd6+ 10.Kxg5 Qe5+ 11.Kg6 Qe6+ 12.Kh5 Qe8+ 13.Kh4 Qe1+ 14.Kh3 Qf1+ 15.Kg3 Qd3+ 16.Kh4 Qh7+
+- (3.93) Depth: 20 00:02:51 69120kN
(, 21.07.2007)



3k4/8/1Pp5/3P2p1/4K1Pp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Crafty 20.14 w32:

1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Ke3 Kc8 4.Ke4 Kb8 5.Kf3 Kc8 6.Kg2 Kb8 7.Kf2 Kc8 8.Ke3 Kb8 9.Ke2 Kc8 10.Kf2 Kb8 11.c7+ Kc8 12.Ke2 Kb7 13.Kf3 Kc8 14.Ke4
+- (4.19) Depth: 26/52 00:03:25 309mN, tb=1084237
(, 21.07.2007)


3k4/8/1Pp5/3P2p1/4K1Pp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by ProDeo 1.5:

1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Ke3 Kd8 3.Kf3 Kc8 4.Kg2 Kd8 5.Kh3 Kc8 6.Kh2 Kb8 7.Kh1 Kc8 8.Kh2 Kb8 9.Kh1 Kc8
+- (3.32) Depth: 24 00:06:05 520mN
(, 21.07.2007)

Chris 8-)
BBauer
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:58 pm

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by BBauer »

So only CM (and rybka) finds the rihgt move here.


Analysis by CM10th Default:

1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 h2 4.d7+ Kb7 5.d8Q h1Q 6.Qc7+ Ka6 7.Qa7+ Kb5 8.b7 Qd5+ 9.Kf6 Qd6+ 10.Kxg5 Qe5+ 11.Kg6 Qe6+ 12.Kh5 Qe8+ 13.Kh4 Qe1+ 14.Kh3 Qf1+ 15.Kg3 Qd3+ 16.Kh4 Qh7+
+- (3.93) Depth: 20 00:02:51 69120kN
(, 21.07.2007)

Interesting how many want to take the pawn.

kind regards
Bernhard
User avatar
George Tsavdaris
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:35 pm

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by George Tsavdaris »

BBauer wrote:So only CM finds the rihgt move here.

Analysis by CM10th Default:

1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 h2 4.d7+ Kb7 5.d8Q h1Q 6.Qc7+ Ka6 7.Qa7+ Kb5 8.b7 Qd5+ 9.Kf6 Qd6+ 10.Kxg5 Qe5+ 11.Kg6 Qe6+ 12.Kh5 Qe8+ 13.Kh4 Qe1+ 14.Kh3 Qf1+ 15.Kg3 Qd3+ 16.Kh4 Qh7+
+- (3.93) Depth: 20 00:02:51 69120kN
(, 21.07.2007)
For the wrong reasons according to the PV:
7.Qa7+? only draws.

Yet i'm not 100% sure that 7.b7 wins. I will analyze this a bit more....
After his son's birth they've asked him:
"Is it a boy or girl?"
YES! He replied.....
bob
Posts: 20943
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by bob »

BBauer wrote:Hallo,

this position is easy for rybka, however some other programs have difficulties to see the win.
[d]3k4/8/1Pp5/3P2p1/4K1Pp/8/8/8 w - - 0 1

looks like crafty has special knowlage. My version plays Ke3 which differs from most others.
kind regards
Bernhard
now wait a minute...

Didn't you just complain because I spent all my efforts on speed? So how can it have "special knowledge" which would obviously slow it down and be harmful to speed? :)
User avatar
smirobth
Posts: 2307
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:41 pm
Location: Brownsville Texas USA

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by smirobth »

Hi Bernhard,

This position was published in my book (from analysis of the game Anand-Chess Genius 1994). Is that where you found it, or did you have a different source for the position? It is interesting that some programs now find the right move.

-Robin
- Robin Smith
BBauer
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:58 pm

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by BBauer »

Yes, this position is from your book.
I found it in a recensation of your book on Rochade Kuppenheim.
Here is the link.
http://www.rochadekuppenheim.de/test/schach/smith.htm
Really an interesting position.

Kind regards
Bernhard
BBauer
Posts: 658
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:58 pm

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by BBauer »

Hi Bob,
may comment was not meant as a complain.
I thought you have special knowlege because my version of crafty does not take the pawn. But in another post I see that crafty20.14 takes the pawn. On the other hand playing Ke3 is not better than taking the pawn.
Anyway, I feel I could run crafty a day without finding d6.
Kind regards
Bernhard
Tobias Lagemann

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by Tobias Lagemann »

Hi,

the Tiger prefers d6 quickly.

Analysis by Chess Tiger 15.0:

1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.b7 Ka7 4.Kg2 Kb8 5.Kh3 Ka7 6.Kh2 Kb8 7.Kg2 Ka7
+- (3.00) Tiefe: 13 00:00:00 99kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7
+- (3.90) Tiefe: 13 00:00:00 126kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 De4+ 9.Kd6 Dxg4 10.b8D+
+- (10.00) Tiefe: 13 00:00:00 146kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 De4+ 9.Kd6 Dxg4 10.b8D+
+- (10.00) Tiefe: 14 00:00:00 157kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 De4+ 9.Kf6 Df4+ 10.Kg6
+- (10.18) Tiefe: 15 00:00:00 237kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Kc4 10.b8D
+- (10.24) Tiefe: 16 00:00:01 482kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kg6 Kc4
+- (10.36) Tiefe: 17 00:00:01 804kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5
+- (10.36) Tiefe: 18 00:00:02 1397kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5 Kc4
+- (10.36) Tiefe: 19 00:00:04 2558kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5 Kc4
+- (11.26) Tiefe: 20 00:00:07 3789kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5
+- (11.44) Tiefe: 20 00:00:12 6792kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5
+- (11.34) Tiefe: 21 00:00:30 16286kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5
+- (11.26) Tiefe: 22 00:01:14 41090kN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5
+- (11.24) Tiefe: 23 00:03:16 111mN
1.d6 Kc8 2.Kf5 h3 3.Ke6 Kb7 4.d7 h2 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dd5+ 9.Kf6 Dd8+ 10.Kf5
+- (11.24) Tiefe: 24 00:06:53 233mN


Two-Variation Analysis by Chess Tiger 15.0 (Deep 22):

1. +- (11.14): 1.d6 Kc8 2.Ke5 h3 3.Ke6 h2 4.d7+ Kb7 5.d8D h1D 6.Dc7+ Ka6 7.Da7+ Kb5 8.b7 Dh6+ 9.Kf5 Df8+ 10.Kxg5
2. +- (3.14): 1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Kg2 Kc8 4.b7+ Kb8 5.Kf2 Kc7 6.Kf3 Kb8 7.Kg2 Kc7 8.Kf2 Kb8

There is 7.Qa7+ in the HV.

After 7.b7

Analysis by Chess Tiger 15.0:
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kg6 De4+ 11.Kh5 De8+ 12.Kh4 De1+ 13.Kh3 De3+ 14.Kg2
+- (2.20) Tiefe: 7 00:00:00 22kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kg6 De4+ 11.Kh5 De8+ 12.Kh4 De1+ 13.Kh3 De3+ 14.Kg2 De2+ 15.Kg3
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 8 00:00:00 43kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kg6 De4+ 11.Kh5 De8+ 12.Kh4 De1+ 13.Kh3 De3+ 14.Kg2 De2+ 15.Kg3 De3+
+- (1.96) Tiefe: 9 00:00:00 81kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dc3+ 11.Kf7 Df3+ 12.Ke7 De4+ 13.Kd8 Dd5+ 14.Dd7 Dxd7+ 15.Kxd7 Kxb7
± (1.26) Tiefe: 10 00:00:00 246kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dd4+ 11.Kf5 Dd5+ 12.Kg6 De4+ 13.Kf6 Df3+ 14.Ke7 De3+ 15.Kd8 Dg5+
± (1.26) Tiefe: 11 00:00:01 564kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Ke4 Db4+ 13.Kd3 Dxb7 14.Dxb7+
+- (2.30) Tiefe: 12 00:00:04 2748kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Ke4 Db4+ 13.Kd3 Db3+ 14.Kd2 Db4+ 15.Ke3 Dc3+
+- (2.32) Tiefe: 13 00:00:07 4457kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Ke4 Db4+ 13.Kd3 Db3+ 14.Ke2 Dc2+ 15.Kf3 Dd1+
+- (2.48) Tiefe: 14 00:00:19 11540kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Ke6 Dg8+ 13.Kf6 Dh8+ 14.Kf5 Df8+ 15.Ke6 Dg8+
+- (2.52) Tiefe: 15 00:00:50 30140kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Ke6 Dg8+ 13.Kf6 Dh8+ 14.Kf5 Df8+ 15.Ke6 Dg8+
+- (2.50) Tiefe: 16 00:02:03 77556kN
7...Dd5+ 8.Kf6 Dd4+ 9.Kxg5 De3+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Ke6 Dg8+ 13.Kf6 Dh8+ 14.Kf5 Df8+ 15.Ke6 Dg8+
+- (2.48) Tiefe: 17 00:06:13 241mN


After 7.Qa7+


Analysis by Chess Tiger 15.0:
7...Kb5 8.b7 Dh6+ 9.Kf7 Dh7+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Ke5 Dg7+ 12.Kf5 Df7+ 13.Kxg5 Dg7+ 14.Kf4 Df6+ 15.Kg3 De5+ 16.Kg2
+- (11.16) Tiefe: 13 00:00:05 3104kN
7...Kb5 8.b7 Dh6+ 9.Kf7 Dh7+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Kxg5 Dg7+ 13.Kf4 Df6+ 14.Kg3 Dc3+ 15.Kf2 Db2+ 16.Ke3
+- (11.02) Tiefe: 14 00:00:14 8518kN
7...Kb5 8.b7 Dh6+ 9.Kf7 Dh7+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Kxg5 Dg7+ 13.Kf4 Df6+ 14.Kg3 Dc3+ 15.Kf2 Db2+ 16.Kf1
+- (10.94) Tiefe: 15 00:00:36 22054kN
7...Kb5 8.b7 Dh6+ 9.Kf7 Dh7+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Kxg5 Dg7+ 13.Kf4 Df6+ 14.Kg3 Dd6+ 15.Kh3 Dd3+ 16.Kh4
+- (10.94) Tiefe: 16 00:01:22 50047kN
7...Kb5 8.b7 Dh6+ 9.Kf7 Dh7+ 10.Kf6 Dh6+ 11.Kf5 Df8+ 12.Kxg5 Dg7+ 13.Kf4 Df6+ 14.Kg3 Dd6+ 15.Kh3 Dd3+ 16.Kh4
+- (10.90) Tiefe: 17 00:05:22 196mN
ernest
Posts: 2053
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:30 pm

Re: simple? pawn ending

Post by ernest »

Well, my latest Rybka 2.3.2a still prefers the wrong dxc6...

E6600 @ 3 GHz
Engine: Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit (256 MB) by Vasik Rajlich
...............
41.01 18:47 +3.60 1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Kf2 Kc8 4.Ke3 Kb8 5.c7+ Kc8 6.Ke4 Kb7 7.Kf3 Kc8 (362.368.769) 329 TB:433.794
42.01 32:57 +3.60 1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Kf2 Kc8 4.Ke3 Kb8 5.c7+ Kc8 6.Ke4 Kb7 7.Kf3 Kc8 (620.207.096) 321 TB:649.085
43.01 60:05 +3.60 1.dxc6 Kc8 2.Kf3 Kb8 3.Kf2 Kc8 4.Ke3 Kb8 5.c7+ Kc8 6.Ke4 Kb7 7.Kf3 Kc8 (1.098.058.292) 311 TB:871.617