Uri Blass wrote:
It is not correct.
It did alter the final outcome.
Uri
Uri, you may be right.
BTW, instead of a convention, do you not think that it would help to have all the rules in Black and White?
Even if Harvey did it knowingly, it was against the convention, and not against the rules. Anyway, had it been against the rules, then the TD would have forced Hiarcs to forfeit and concede the game.
So, how is the result altered?
This is getting out of hand. There _are_ rules for computer chess events. You can find the oldest set on the ICGA web site for the WCCC events.
I am absolutely amazed that anyone today thinks we play these events without any rules written down. That's either pretty funny or pretty sad, depending on how you look at it...
Harvey Williamson wrote:
A draw was not enough we had to win so when we got into the Father type position I changed contempt to the value of 1 pawn this obviously messed things up.
How did you do that? In the middle of a game you can change the parameters of Hiarcs without the need to restart Hiarcs?
Or did you restart/re-upload it?
Also the opening was indeed a disaster for both engines and mostly for Hiarcs since it was trying to win the tournament.
That's why after the unusual 12.a3 you should always play 12...cxd4 to have an open file that the engines will find something to do with it. I guess you've learned that now.
Hiarcs of course would not lose this game if you didn't change the contempt value and this game would be a draw.
Normally you will reply saying that this game ended with a Hiarcs loss and there are no "if".....
But i insist saying there are "if".....
Hi George,
You can change settings during a game it has 2 effects. If it is yur turn to move as you 'ok' the change the engine will move instantly. If it is your opponents move all Hiarcs onder will stop.
If you want to try it play a game on Playchess with any engine. While the game is playing right click on engine pane and click properties and make your changes. I was using Chess Partner yesterday a GUI I am not familiar with but it seemed to work the same.
I very much enjoyed this tournament it was great fun and we just got bad luck in round 14.
Best Wishes,
Harvey
This misses the main point. Why do you think it is ok to violate the tournament rules that say the engine has to play _by itself_ without any operator intervention?
This is beyond me. You simply can't change _anything_ once the game starts. And by "anything" I mean _ANYTHING_...
It is a perfect reason for disqualification on the spot.
I think looking back you are right and it was wrong. I will not operate another tournament on ICC. However I will point out that various other rules were openly broken and nobody seemed to care.
For eg. during my game with Crafty I saw no info was kibitzed.
Also just because I said I did this is round 14 of this tournament does it mean others have not always done this quietly?
Or during the many disconnects that happen every tournament. This is my last post on the subject and I will punish myself by not operating in any tournament on ICC again.
I cared. IMHO we should never again allow a program to play if it can't kibitz its evaluations. It is not hard to do, and not doing so violates a rule intended to make it more difficult for the operator to interfere. I suspect that the rule was overlooked to avoid not allowing Rybka to participate. I personally believe that it should not have played if it could not comply with the rules in force.
Harvey Williamson wrote:
A draw was not enough we had to win so when we got into the Father type position I changed contempt to the value of 1 pawn this obviously messed things up.
How did you do that? In the middle of a game you can change the parameters of Hiarcs without the need to restart Hiarcs?
Or did you restart/re-upload it?
Also the opening was indeed a disaster for both engines and mostly for Hiarcs since it was trying to win the tournament.
That's why after the unusual 12.a3 you should always play 12...cxd4 to have an open file that the engines will find something to do with it. I guess you've learned that now.
Hiarcs of course would not lose this game if you didn't change the contempt value and this game would be a draw.
Normally you will reply saying that this game ended with a Hiarcs loss and there are no "if".....
But i insist saying there are "if".....
Hi George,
You can change settings during a game it has 2 effects. If it is yur turn to move as you 'ok' the change the engine will move instantly. If it is your opponents move all Hiarcs onder will stop.
If you want to try it play a game on Playchess with any engine. While the game is playing right click on engine pane and click properties and make your changes. I was using Chess Partner yesterday a GUI I am not familiar with but it seemed to work the same.
I very much enjoyed this tournament it was great fun and we just got bad luck in round 14.
Best Wishes,
Harvey
This misses the main point. Why do you think it is ok to violate the tournament rules that say the engine has to play _by itself_ without any operator intervention?
This is beyond me. You simply can't change _anything_ once the game starts. And by "anything" I mean _ANYTHING_...
It is a perfect reason for disqualification on the spot.
I think looking back you are right and it was wrong. I will not operate another tournament on ICC. However I will point out that various other rules were openly broken and nobody seemed to care.
For eg. during my game with Crafty I saw no info was kibitzed.
Also just because I said I did this is round 14 of this tournament does it mean others have not always done this quietly?
Or during the many disconnects that happen every tournament. This is my last post on the subject and I will punish myself by not operating in any tournament on ICC again.
I cared. IMHO we should never again allow a program to play if it can't kibitz its evaluations. It is not hard to do, and not doing so violates a rule intended to make it more difficult for the operator to interfere. I suspect that the rule was overlooked to avoid not allowing Rybka to participate. I personally believe that it should not have played if it could not comply with the rules in force.
And Crafty did not kibitze during our game why?
You also could have stopped GridChess playing in the WCCC you chose not to. You can shout all you want but dont pretend you are faultless.
Harvey Williamson wrote:
A draw was not enough we had to win so when we got into the Father type position I changed contempt to the value of 1 pawn this obviously messed things up.
How did you do that? In the middle of a game you can change the parameters of Hiarcs without the need to restart Hiarcs?
Or did you restart/re-upload it?
Also the opening was indeed a disaster for both engines and mostly for Hiarcs since it was trying to win the tournament.
That's why after the unusual 12.a3 you should always play 12...cxd4 to have an open file that the engines will find something to do with it. I guess you've learned that now.
Hiarcs of course would not lose this game if you didn't change the contempt value and this game would be a draw.
Normally you will reply saying that this game ended with a Hiarcs loss and there are no "if".....
But i insist saying there are "if".....
Hi George,
You can change settings during a game it has 2 effects. If it is yur turn to move as you 'ok' the change the engine will move instantly. If it is your opponents move all Hiarcs onder will stop.
If you want to try it play a game on Playchess with any engine. While the game is playing right click on engine pane and click properties and make your changes. I was using Chess Partner yesterday a GUI I am not familiar with but it seemed to work the same.
I very much enjoyed this tournament it was great fun and we just got bad luck in round 14.
Best Wishes,
Harvey
This misses the main point. Why do you think it is ok to violate the tournament rules that say the engine has to play _by itself_ without any operator intervention?
This is beyond me. You simply can't change _anything_ once the game starts. And by "anything" I mean _ANYTHING_...
It is a perfect reason for disqualification on the spot.
I think looking back you are right and it was wrong. I will not operate another tournament on ICC. However I will point out that various other rules were openly broken and nobody seemed to care.
For eg. during my game with Crafty I saw no info was kibitzed.
Also just because I said I did this is round 14 of this tournament does it mean others have not always done this quietly?
Or during the many disconnects that happen every tournament. This is my last post on the subject and I will punish myself by not operating in any tournament on ICC again.
I cared. IMHO we should never again allow a program to play if it can't kibitz its evaluations. It is not hard to do, and not doing so violates a rule intended to make it more difficult for the operator to interfere. I suspect that the rule was overlooked to avoid not allowing Rybka to participate. I personally believe that it should not have played if it could not comply with the rules in force.
And Crafty did not kibitze during our game why?
You also could have stopped GridChess playing in the WCCC you chose not to. You can shout all you want but dont pretend you are faultless.
1. I think I originally had it set to whisper rather than kibits. In the past we have done it this way as we had a couple of cases of a program getting confused by the kibitzes in past events. Whispering lets all observers see the output, it just doesn't show up on the opponent's screen. Since most of us long-time ICC'ers have an account for our programs, and an account for us so we can observe, that works perfectly.
2. I did _not_ suggest that gridchess be allowed to play in the WCCC event. In fact, I specifically stated that I didn't think they should be allowed to participate in _any_ ICGA event. Of course, I suggested this same thing in 1996 or 1997 when Gunda-1 participated in Jakarta, even though it was a barely modified copy of Crafty. I would be interested to know how I could have stopped it, however? I wasn't the TD for the event, and I am not on the ICGA computer chess committee.
I can't enforce the rules, I can only play by them. And I _have_ always played by the rules. More importantly, I even know the rules beforehand so that I can be certain of complying. I still find it impossible to believe that you think it is ok to change whatever you want while a game is in progress. Computer chess events have been held for 37 years now with rules against this. It's hard to fathom how this could be unknown to you or anyone that is interested in participating...
Last edited by bob on Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Harvey Williamson wrote:
A draw was not enough we had to win so when we got into the Father type position I changed contempt to the value of 1 pawn this obviously messed things up.
How did you do that? In the middle of a game you can change the parameters of Hiarcs without the need to restart Hiarcs?
Or did you restart/re-upload it?
Also the opening was indeed a disaster for both engines and mostly for Hiarcs since it was trying to win the tournament.
That's why after the unusual 12.a3 you should always play 12...cxd4 to have an open file that the engines will find something to do with it. I guess you've learned that now.
Hiarcs of course would not lose this game if you didn't change the contempt value and this game would be a draw.
Normally you will reply saying that this game ended with a Hiarcs loss and there are no "if".....
But i insist saying there are "if".....
Hi George,
You can change settings during a game it has 2 effects. If it is yur turn to move as you 'ok' the change the engine will move instantly. If it is your opponents move all Hiarcs onder will stop.
If you want to try it play a game on Playchess with any engine. While the game is playing right click on engine pane and click properties and make your changes. I was using Chess Partner yesterday a GUI I am not familiar with but it seemed to work the same.
I very much enjoyed this tournament it was great fun and we just got bad luck in round 14.
Best Wishes,
Harvey
This misses the main point. Why do you think it is ok to violate the tournament rules that say the engine has to play _by itself_ without any operator intervention?
This is beyond me. You simply can't change _anything_ once the game starts. And by "anything" I mean _ANYTHING_...
It is a perfect reason for disqualification on the spot.
I think looking back you are right and it was wrong. I will not operate another tournament on ICC. However I will point out that various other rules were openly broken and nobody seemed to care.
For eg. during my game with Crafty I saw no info was kibitzed.
Also just because I said I did this is round 14 of this tournament does it mean others have not always done this quietly?
Or during the many disconnects that happen every tournament. This is my last post on the subject and I will punish myself by not operating in any tournament on ICC again.
I cared. IMHO we should never again allow a program to play if it can't kibitz its evaluations. It is not hard to do, and not doing so violates a rule intended to make it more difficult for the operator to interfere. I suspect that the rule was overlooked to avoid not allowing Rybka to participate. I personally believe that it should not have played if it could not comply with the rules in force.
And Crafty did not kibitze during our game why?
You also could have stopped GridChess playing in the WCCC you chose not to. You can shout all you want but dont pretend you are faultless.
1. I think I originally had it set to whisper rather than kibits. In the past we have done it this way as we had a couple of cases of a program getting confused by the kibitzes in past events. Whispering lets all observers see the output, it just doesn't show up on the opponent's screen. Since most of us long-time ICC'ers have an account for our programs, and an account for us so we can observe, that works perfectly.
2. I did _not_ suggest that gridchess be allowed to play in the WCCC event. In fact, I specifically stated that I didn't think they should be allowed to participate in _any_ ICGA event. Of course, I suggested this same thing in 1996 or 1997 when Gunda-1 participated in Jakarta, even though it was a barely modified copy of Crafty. I would be interested to know how I could have stopped it, however? I wasn't the TD for the event, and I am not on the ICGA computer chess committee.
I can't enforce the rules, I can only play by them. And I _have_ always played by the rules. More importantly, I even know the rules beforehand so that I can be certain of complying. I still find it impossible to believe that you think it is ok to change whatever you want while a game is in progress. Computer chess events have been held for 37 years now with rules against this. It's hard to fathom how this could be unknown to you or anyone that is interested in participating...
In answer to 1 the rules clearly state kibitze not whisper so I ask that you now be disqualified.
As for 2 you said:
(c) I told them that if the ICGA chose to allow such entries, then I would have no objection, but that I personally strongly disagreed with the idea in general...
Last edited by Harvey Williamson on Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
(c) I told them that if the ICGA chose to allow such entries, then I would have no objection, but that I personally strongly disagreed with the idea in general...
(c) I told them that if the ICGA chose to allow such entries, then I would have no objection, but that I personally strongly disagreed with the idea in general...
Yep Harvey,no comment is needed
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
Ai ai,... Yet another low-level programmer of a mediocre engine that doesn't show proper respect for the behavior of a top engine, and doesn't have the good manners too keep silent unless spoken to...
hgm wrote:Ai ai,... Yet another low-level programmer of a mediocre engine that doesn't show proper respect for the behavior of a top engine, and doesn't have the good manners too keep silent unless spoken to...
Now he will get toasted for sure!
Did you get a permission to make this post or you post on your own
_No one can hit as hard as life.But it ain’t about how hard you can hit.It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.How much you can take and keep moving forward….
hgm wrote:Ai ai,... Yet another low-level programmer of a mediocre engine that doesn't show proper respect for the behavior of a top engine, and doesn't have the good manners too keep silent unless spoken to...
Now he will get toasted for sure!
toasted maybe not but it does seem like Bob also broke the rules:
