interesting position

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jdart
Posts: 4411
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

interesting position

Post by jdart »

In this game

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1441216

there is mention of a sideline analyzed by GM Golubov. The end of the line is this position:

[d] 5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

here it is said h4 is winning but computers take "several minutes" to see it.

I tried Arasan and Crafty (20.14) on this - neither wants to play h4 in a reasonable time but prefer the draw with Rc8+ Kg7 Qg4+ Kf7 Qe6+ Kg7.

If I force h4 and then search, I get a fail low eventually, but Crafty took over 5 minutes for that. So it looks like finding h4 is quite hard. (N.b. I have not analyzed this at long time control so don't know if h4 is the unique best move, or winning, but it's better than taking the draw).
JVMerlino
Posts: 1404
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:15 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: interesting position

Post by JVMerlino »

CM9_R1 finds h4 in 3:35 on a slightly busy P4-3.0. However, in the next depth the score becomes quite a bit less convincing, so I definitely wouldn't say that it found the win:

Code: Select all

Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
0:00	1/3	0.00	2361		1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.Qe6+ Kg7
0:00	1/4	0.00	8881		1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.Qe6+ Kg7
0:00	1/5	0.00	35796		1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.Qe6+ Kg7
0:00	1/6	0.00	106934		1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.Qe6+ Kg7
0:01	1/7	0.00	284970		1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.Qe6+ Kg7
0:01	1/7	0.28	420471		1.Kf1 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8
					4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Rc7 6.c3
0:03	1/8	1.04	775639		1.Kf1 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8
					4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Rc7 6.c3 b4
					7.Rh7+ Kd6 8.Rxc7 Kxc7 9.cxb4
0:06	1/9	1.04	1642993		1.Kf1 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8
					4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Rc7 6.c3 b4
					7.Rh7+ Kd6 8.Rxc7 Kxc7 9.cxb4
0:15	1/10	0.39	4331963		1.Kf1 Kg7 2.b4 Qd8 3.Qg4+ Kf7 4.Rg3
					Ke8 5.Qh5+ Kf8 6.Qh6+ Ke8 7.Qxf6
					Rf8
0:48	1/11	0.39	13296752	1.Kf1 Kg7 2.b4 Qd8 3.Qg4+ Kf7 4.Rg3
					Ke8 5.Qh5+ Kf8 6.Qh6+ Ke8 7.Qxf6
					Rf8
2:15	1/12	0.14	37700856	1.Kf1 Kg7 2.Rg3+ Kf8 3.Qg4 Ke8
					4.Qh5+ Kf8 5.Qh6+ Ke8 6.Rg7 Kd8
					7.Rgxe7 Rxe7 8.Rxe7 Kxe7 9.Qg7+
					Ke6 10.Qxh8 Qd2
3:35	1/12	0.91	58731094	1.h4 h5 2.Ree3 Rc7 3.Ra3 Qb4 4.Rxa6
					Qg4 5.Ra8+ Kg7 6.Qxe7+ Rxe7 7.Rxe7+
					Kg6 8.Rxh8 Qd1+ 9.Kh2 Qxc2
6:13	2/13	0.40	102347314	1.h4 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8
					4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Ke6 6.Rxh5
					Rc7 7.c3 b4 8.cxb4 Rc1+ 9.Kh2 d4
					10.Kg3 d3
jm
AGove

Re: interesting position

Post by AGove »

[d] 5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by HIARCS 11.2 SP:

1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf7
= (0.19) Depth: 8/26 00:00:00 238kN
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 Rc7 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rg4
= (0.00) Depth: 9/26 00:00:00 281kN
1.Rc8+
= (0.25) Depth: 10/26 00:00:01 697kN
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 Rc7 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rc8 Rxc8 9.Rxc8
= (0.25) Depth: 10/26 00:00:01 761kN
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rb8 Re7 9.g4 Rg7
+/= (0.28) Depth: 11/29 00:00:03 1488kN
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rb8 Re7 9.g4 Re1+ 10.Kg2 Kg7 11.Rhg8+
+/= (0.42) Depth: 12/32 00:00:06 2888kN
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rb8 Re7 9.g4 Re1+ 10.Kg2 Kg7 11.Rhg8+ Kf7
+/= (0.42) Depth: 13/36 00:00:15 6759kN
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Ra8 Re7 9.Rhe8 Rc7 10.Rec8 Rxc8 11.Rxc8
+/= (0.35) Depth: 14/36 00:00:29 12861kN
1.h4
+/= (0.36) Depth: 14/37 00:00:41 17194kN
1.h4
+/= (0.67) Depth: 14/39 00:00:43 18239kN
1.h4 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8 4.Rxc8+ Kxe7
+/= (0.67) Depth: 14/39 00:00:46 19264kN
1.h4 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8 4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Ke6 6.Rxh5 Rc7 7.c3 b4 8.cxb4 Rb7 9.Rh8 Rxb4 10.Ra8
+/- (0.71) Depth: 15/41 00:01:24 34617kN
1.h4 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8 4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Ke6 6.Rxh5 Rc7 7.c3 b4 8.cxb4 Rc1+ 9.Kh2 Rc2 10.Rh8
+/- (0.82) Depth: 16/41 00:02:54 71064kN

(Gove, 22.08.2007)
Uri Blass
Posts: 10980
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: interesting position

Post by Uri Blass »

jdart wrote:In this game

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1441216

there is mention of a sideline analyzed by GM Golubov. The end of the line is this position:

[d] 5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

here it is said h4 is winning but computers take "several minutes" to see it.

I tried Arasan and Crafty (20.14) on this - neither wants to play h4 in a reasonable time but prefer the draw with Rc8+ Kg7 Qg4+ Kf7 Qe6+ Kg7.

If I force h4 and then search, I get a fail low eventually, but Crafty took over 5 minutes for that. So it looks like finding h4 is quite hard. (N.b. I have not analyzed this at long time control so don't know if h4 is the unique best move, or winning, but it's better than taking the draw).
I do not understand crafty and arasan
h4 is the right move but
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4! is an advantage for white

Cannot they see advantage for white by 3.b4 in that line?

Here is movei's analysis:

New game
5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Movei00_8_438:

1.Qe6xd5
² (0.35) Depth: 1 00:00:00
1.Qe6xd5
= (0.05) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Qe6xd5 Ra7-c7
= (-0.11) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
= (-0.10) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
= (0.19) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6xe7+ Ra7xe7 3.Re1xe7+ Kg7-g6 4.Rc8xh8
± (1.28) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6xe7+ Ra7xe7 3.Re1xe7+ Kg7-g6 4.Rc8xh8
± (1.28) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
± (0.98) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
² (0.28) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-h6 3.Qg4-h3+ Kh6-g6 4.Qh3-g4+ Kg6-h6
= (0.00) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-h6 3.Qg4-h3+ Kh6-g6 4.Qh3-g4+ Kg6-h6
= (0.00) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 6 00:00:00 38kN
1.Kg1-f1
= (0.01) Depth: 6 00:00:00 82kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Qe6xd5 Be7-b4 4.c2-c3
= (0.04) Depth: 6 00:00:00 89kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Qe6xd5 Be7-b4 4.c2-c3
= (0.04) Depth: 6 00:00:00 148kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Rg3-c3
= (0.00) Depth: 7 00:00:00 172kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Rg3-c3
= (0.00) Depth: 7 00:00:02 323kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Rg3-c3
= (0.00) Depth: 8 00:00:02 345kN
1.Rc3-c8+
= (0.01) Depth: 8 00:00:02 436kN
1.Rc3-c8+
² (0.30) Depth: 8 00:00:02 441kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8
± (0.79) Depth: 8 00:00:02 467kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8
± (0.79) Depth: 8 00:00:04 518kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 9 00:00:04 565kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 9 00:00:05 886kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 10 00:00:05 983kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 10 00:00:07 1447kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-g4
² (0.55) Depth: 11 00:00:07 1651kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-g4
² (0.55) Depth: 11 00:00:09 2794kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-g7
² (0.70) Depth: 12 00:00:09 3253kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-g7
² (0.70) Depth: 12 00:00:20 9384kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-c5 9.Rc8xc5 Bb4xc5
² (0.47) Depth: 13 00:00:22 10485kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-c5 9.Rc8xc5 Bb4xc5
² (0.47) Depth: 13 00:00:41 19804kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7xc8 9.Rh8xc8 Kh6-g5 10.Rc8-c7
² (0.58) Depth: 14 00:00:43 21447kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7xc8 9.Rh8xc8 Kh6-g5 10.Rc8-c7
² (0.58) Depth: 14 00:01:15 36402kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-e7 9.g2-g3 Re7-e1+ 10.Kg1-g2 Kh6-g6
² (0.59) Depth: 15 00:01:22 40129kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-e7 9.g2-g3 Re7-e1+ 10.Kg1-g2 Kh6-g6
² (0.59) Depth: 15 00:02:21 68701kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 a6-a5 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-b8 Ra7-c7 9.Rb8xb5 Rc7xc2 10.Kg1-f1 Kh6-g7 11.Rh8-d8
² (0.67) Depth: 16 00:02:32 74140kN
1.h2-h4
² (0.68) Depth: 16 00:03:56 110004kN
1.h2-h4
± (0.97) Depth: 16 00:04:46 130797kN
1.h2-h4 Qa5-b4 2.Re1-e3 Qb4-f4 3.Re3-f3 Qf4-c1+ 4.Kg1-h2 Qc1-h6 5.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 6.Rf3-g3+ Qh6-g6 7.Rg3xg6+ h7xg6 8.Rc8xh8 Kg7xh8 9.Qe6-e3 Be7-d6+ 10.Kh2-h3 Ra7-g7 11.Qe3-e6 Bd6-e5 12.Qe6xa6
+- (2.61) Depth: 16 00:19:34 483795kN

(, 22.08.2007)



Uri
User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Re: interesting position

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Wow that is starting to look good Uri! I think it is impressive analysis from Movei!

Compare it with the following slightly erratic output:


5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

Engine: Fruit 2.3.1 Mandarin (256 MB)
by Fabien Letouzey, France

6.00 0:00 +1.01++ 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kh6 3.Rc3 f5
4.Qxf5 Rg8 5.Qf4+ Kg6 6.Re6+ Kg7 (173.033)

6.00 0:00 +1.08 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 (195.109)

6.00 0:00 +1.08 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 (231.555)

7.00 0:00 +0.97 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Rhg8+ Kf7 (272.754)

8.00 0:00 +0.97 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Rhg8+ Kf7 (456.091)

9.00 0:01 +0.69 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Kf1 Re7 8.Rhg8+ Kf7 9.Rxe7+ Bxe7 (816.671) 780

10.01 0:02 +0.69 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Kf1 Re7 8.Rhg8+ Kf7 9.Rxe7+ Bxe7 (1.978.821) 762

11.01 0:06 +0.75 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rd8 Re7 9.Rhe8 Re4 (4.683.952) 776

12.01 0:12 +0.64 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rd8 Re7 9.Rhe8 Re4
10.Ra8 (10.251.906) 787

12.08 0:20 +0.72 1.Kf1 h6 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8
4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Rc7 6.c3 a5
7.Rxh6 Ke6 8.Ke2 Rg7 9.b4 axb4 (16.367.463) 786

13.01 0:40 +0.86 1.Kf1 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8
4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Rc7 6.c3 a5
7.Rxh5 Kd6 8.Rh8 Re7 9.h4 Ke5 (31.870.496) 793 TB:7

13.03 0:42 +1.12++ 1.Qe3 Rd7 2.Qh6+ Kf7 3.Qh3 Ra7
4.Qh5+ Kf8 5.Kf1 Qd8 6.Qh6+ Ke8
7.Rd3 Rd7 8.Qg7 Rd6 (33.380.933) 794 TB:7

13.01 0:40 +0.86 1.Kf1 h5 2.Qc8+ Qd8 3.Rxe7 Qxc8
4.Rxc8+ Kxe7 5.Rxh8 Rc7 6.c3 a5
7.Rxh5 Kd6 8.Rh8 Re7 9.h4 Ke5 (31.870.496) 794 TB:7

13.49 1:01 +0.93 1.Qc8+ Qd8 2.Qh3 Rc7 3.Qh6+ Ke8
4.Rce3 d4 5.Re4 Qd6 6.Qg7 Rf8 7.Qxh7 Rf7
8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Qg7 a5 (49.277.713) 797 TB:7

14.01 1:19 +0.68 1.Qc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf8 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Rc8+ Kf7 5.Qxb4 Bxb4 6.Rxh8 Kg7
7.Ree8 a5 8.Reg8+ Kh6 9.Rb8 Re7
10.Rhe8 Rxe8 11.Rxe8 Kg5 (63.711.677) 799 TB:7

15.01 2:21 +0.64 1.Qc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf8 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Rc8+ Kf7 5.Qxb4 Bxb4 6.Rxh8 Kg7
7.Ree8 a5 8.Reg8+ Kh6 9.Rb8 Re7
10.Rhe8 Rxe8 11.Rxe8 a4 12.Kf1 Bd6
13.g3 (114.698.615) 808 TB:7

15.45 5:35 +1.08++ 1.h4 h5 2.Rc8+ Kg7 3.Re3 Qa1+ 4.Kh2 Bd6+
5.Qxd6 Rxc8 6.Rg3+ Kh7 7.Qxf6 Rxc2 (268.107.424) 798 TB:7

15.01 7:20 +2.28 1.h4 h5 2.Rc8+ Kg7 3.Re3 Qa1+ 4.Kh2 Bd6+
5.Qxd6 Rxc8 6.Rg3+ Kh7 7.Qxf6 Rg8
8.Qf5+ Kh8 9.Qxh5+ Rh7 10.Qe5+ Rhg7
11.Rg5 Qd1 12.Rh5+ Qxh5 13.Qxh5+ Rh7
14.Qe5+ (350.642.895) 796 TB:8

15.01 7:38 +2.28 1.h4 h5 2.Rc8+ Kg7 3.Re3 Qa1+ 4.Kh2 Bd6+
5.Qxd6 Rxc8 6.Rg3+ Kh7 7.Qxf6 Rg8
8.Qf5+ Kh8 9.Qxh5+ Rh7 10.Qe5+ Rhg7
11.Rg5 Qd1 12.Rh5+ Qxh5 13.Qxh5+ Rh7
14.Qe5+ (365.273.098) 797 TB:8

16.01 8:41 +2.68++ 1.h4 h5 2.Rc8+ Kg7 3.Re3 Qa1+ 4.Kh2 Bd6+
5.Qxd6 Rxc8 6.Rg3+ Kh7 7.Qxf6 Rg8
8.Qf5+ Kh6 9.Rxg8 Rc7 10.Qxd5 Qc1
11.Qe6+ Kh7 12.Rg5 Qf4+ 13.Kh3 Rxc2
14.Rxh5+ (417.873.229) 801 TB:8

16.01 13:37 +2.83 1.h4 h6 2.Ree3 Rc7 3.Ra3 Qb4 4.Rxa6 Qxh4
5.Rg3 Qg5 6.Rxg5 hxg5 7.c3 d4 8.Qb6 Rc8
9.Qxd4 Rh4 10.g4 (666.923.294) 815 TB:12

16.01 14:37 +2.83 1.h4 h6 2.Ree3 Rc7 3.Ra3 Qb4 4.Rxa6 Qxh4
5.Rg3 Qg5 6.Rxg5 hxg5 7.c3 d4 8.Qb6 Rc8
9.Qxd4 Rh4 10.g4 (717.796.126) 817 TB:12

17.01 16:14 +3.23++ 1.h4 h6 2.h5 Qb4 3.Rc8+ Kg7 4.Re3 Bd6
5.Rxh8 Kxh8 6.Qxf6+ Kh7 7.Re8 Be5
8.Qxe5 Qh4 9.Qxd5 Qc4 (799.786.847) 820 TB:12

17.01 20:48 +3.33 1.h4 Qb4 2.Ree3 Ra8 3.Rf3 Qe4
4.Rxf6+ Bxf6 5.Qxf6+ Kg8 6.Rg3+ Qg6
7.Rxg6+ hxg6 8.Qxg6+ Kf8 9.Qf6+ Kg8
10.g4 Rh7 11.Qc6 Rf8 12.Qxd5+ Kh8
13.f4 Re8 14.Qd6 (1.029.249.575) 824 TB:63

17.01 22:52 +3.33 1.h4 Qb4 2.Ree3 Ra8 3.Rf3 Qe4
4.Rxf6+ Bxf6 5.Qxf6+ Kg8 6.Rg3+ Qg6
7.Rxg6+ hxg6 8.Qxg6+ Kf8 9.Qf6+ Kg8
10.g4 Rh7 11.Qc6 Rf8 12.Qxd5+ Kh8
13.f4 Re8 14.Qd6 (1.133.028.736) 825 TB:63



This is Toga 1.3.4 Checkov:


5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

Engine: Toga II 1.3.4 Checkov 2c bitbases (256 MB)
by Thomas Gaksch and Fabien Letouzey

1/01 0:00 +0.76 1.Qxd5 (2)

2/10 0:00 +0.75 1.Qxd5 Kg7 2.Rg3+ Kh6 (661)

3/16 0:00 +0.17 1.Qxd5 Bb4 2.Rc8+ Kg7 (8.206)

4/16 0:00 -0.28 1.Qxd5 Bb4 2.Rc8+ Kg7 3.Rxh8 Kxh8
4.Re8+ Kg7 (12.878)

4/22 0:00 +0.09 1.Qc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.Qh5+ Kg7
4.Rg3+ Kf8 5.Rge3 (18.106)

4/22 0:00 +0.91++ 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 (21.668)

5/22 0:00 +0.91 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 (26.057)

6/25 0:00 +0.91 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 (41.871)

7/25 0:00 +1.10 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg6 (96.696)

8/30 0:00 +0.79 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 (291.428)

9/31 0:00 +0.87 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Rhg8+ Kf7 (635.497)

10/44 0:01 +0.65 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Re8 (1.217.159) 811

11/44 0:03 +0.49 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rg3 Re7 (2.950.633) 807

12/52 0:07 +0.48 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Rb8 Bd6 8.Rbg8+ Kh6 9.Re8 (6.321.738) 810

13/52 0:18 +0.44 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Rg3 Re7 9.Rh3+ Kg6
10.Rg8+ Kf7 (14.695.454) 807

14/52 0:40 +0.28 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.g3 Rc7 9.Rc8 Re7
10.Kg2 (33.039.617) 815

15/58 1:30 +0.49 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4 Qxb4
4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7 6.Ree8 a5
7.g3 Rc7 8.Reg8+ Kh6 9.Rc8 Rxc8
10.Rxc8 Kg5 11.Rc7 (74.012.407) 821

15/58 2:03 +0.50 1.h3 Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.Qh5+ Kg7
4.Rg3+ Kf8 5.c3 Qb6 6.Qh6+ Ke8 7.Qg7 Rf8
8.Rge3 Qd8 9.Qxh7 Rf7 10.Qh6 Kd7 (101.294.965) 823

15/60 2:33 +1.28++ 1.h4 h5 2.Rc8+ Kg7 3.Re3 Qa1+ 4.Kh2 Bd6+
5.Qxd6 Rxc8 6.Rg3+ Kh7 7.Qxf6 Rg8
8.Qf5+ Kh8 9.Qxh5+ Rh7 10.Qe5+ Rhg7
11.Rg6 Qc1 12.f4 Qxc2 13.Rh6+ Qh7
14.Rxh7+ (126.955.906) 825

16/60 5:49 +3.49++ 1.h4 h6 2.h5 Qb4 3.Rc8+ Kg7 4.c3 Rxc8
5.cxb4 Rg8 6.Qxd5 Rc7 7.Re6 Re8
8.Qf3 Rc1+ 9.Kh2 Kh8 10.Rxa6 (285.075.870) 814

17/62 7:12 +3.54 1.h4 h6 2.h5 Qb4 3.Rc8+ Kg7 4.c3 Rxc8
5.cxb4 Rg8 6.Qxd5 Rc7 7.Re6 Kh8
8.Rxa6 Rc1+ 9.Kh2 Bxb4 10.Rxf6 (350.911.567) 812

best move: h2-h4 time: 8:11.265 min n/s: 815.410 CPU 100.0% n/s(1CPU): 815.410 nodes: 400.430.000


Eelco
bob
Posts: 20943
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: interesting position

Post by bob »

Uri Blass wrote:
jdart wrote:In this game

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1441216

there is mention of a sideline analyzed by GM Golubov. The end of the line is this position:

[d] 5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

here it is said h4 is winning but computers take "several minutes" to see it.

I tried Arasan and Crafty (20.14) on this - neither wants to play h4 in a reasonable time but prefer the draw with Rc8+ Kg7 Qg4+ Kf7 Qe6+ Kg7.

If I force h4 and then search, I get a fail low eventually, but Crafty took over 5 minutes for that. So it looks like finding h4 is quite hard. (N.b. I have not analyzed this at long time control so don't know if h4 is the unique best move, or winning, but it's better than taking the draw).
I do not understand crafty and arasan
h4 is the right move but
1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 3.b4! is an advantage for white

Cannot they see advantage for white by 3.b4 in that line?
I don't see the "big advantage for white after b4" myself. Here's current crafty's output:

Code: Select all

               13    12.58   0.07   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 Rc7 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rg4 a5
                                    9. Rb8 Rxc2 10. Rxb5 (s=15)
               13->  39.72   0.07   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 Rc7 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rg4 a5
                                    9. Rb8 Rxc2 10. Rxb5 (s=16)
               14    41.47   0.18   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 f5 7. Ra8 Rc7 8. Rhe8 Rxc2
                                    9. Ra7+ Kf6 10. Rxa6+ Kg5 (s=15)
               14->   2:05   0.18   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 f5 7. Ra8 Rc7 8. Rhe8 Rxc2
                                    9. Ra7+ Kf6 10. Rxa6+ Kg5 (s=16)
               15     2:11   0.14   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 a5 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rd8 Re7
                                    9. Rhe8 Rxe8 10. Rxe8 Kg5 11. Re6 (s=15)
               15->   7:25   0.14   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 a5 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rd8 Re7
                                    9. Rhe8 Rxe8 10. Rxe8 Kg5 11. Re6 (s=16)
               16     7:44   0.13   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 a5 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rc8 Re7
                                    9. Rhe8 Kg5 10. Rb8 Rxe8 11. Rxe8 (s=15)


Here is movei's analysis:

New game
5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Movei00_8_438:

1.Qe6xd5
² (0.35) Depth: 1 00:00:00
1.Qe6xd5
= (0.05) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Qe6xd5 Ra7-c7
= (-0.11) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
= (-0.10) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
= (0.19) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6xe7+ Ra7xe7 3.Re1xe7+ Kg7-g6 4.Rc8xh8
± (1.28) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6xe7+ Ra7xe7 3.Re1xe7+ Kg7-g6 4.Rc8xh8
± (1.28) Depth: 2 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
± (0.98) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+
² (0.28) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-h6 3.Qg4-h3+ Kh6-g6 4.Qh3-g4+ Kg6-h6
= (0.00) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-h6 3.Qg4-h3+ Kh6-g6 4.Qh3-g4+ Kg6-h6
= (0.00) Depth: 3 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 4 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 5 00:00:00
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.Re1xe7+ Ra7xe7 4.Qg4-h5+ Kf7-g7 5.Qh5-g4+ Kg7-f7
= (0.00) Depth: 6 00:00:00 38kN
1.Kg1-f1
= (0.01) Depth: 6 00:00:00 82kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Qe6xd5 Be7-b4 4.c2-c3
= (0.04) Depth: 6 00:00:00 89kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Qe6xd5 Be7-b4 4.c2-c3
= (0.04) Depth: 6 00:00:00 148kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Rg3-c3
= (0.00) Depth: 7 00:00:00 172kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Rg3-c3
= (0.00) Depth: 7 00:00:02 323kN
1.Kg1-f1 Kf8-g7 2.Rc3-g3+ Kg7-f8 3.Rg3-c3
= (0.00) Depth: 8 00:00:02 345kN
1.Rc3-c8+
= (0.01) Depth: 8 00:00:02 436kN
1.Rc3-c8+
² (0.30) Depth: 8 00:00:02 441kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8
± (0.79) Depth: 8 00:00:02 467kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8
± (0.79) Depth: 8 00:00:04 518kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 9 00:00:04 565kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 9 00:00:05 886kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 10 00:00:05 983kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Rh8-g8+ Kg7-f7
² (0.54) Depth: 10 00:00:07 1447kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-g4
² (0.55) Depth: 11 00:00:07 1651kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-g4
² (0.55) Depth: 11 00:00:09 2794kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-g7
² (0.70) Depth: 12 00:00:09 3253kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-g7
² (0.70) Depth: 12 00:00:20 9384kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-c5 9.Rc8xc5 Bb4xc5
² (0.47) Depth: 13 00:00:22 10485kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-c5 9.Rc8xc5 Bb4xc5
² (0.47) Depth: 13 00:00:41 19804kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7xc8 9.Rh8xc8 Kh6-g5 10.Rc8-c7
² (0.58) Depth: 14 00:00:43 21447kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7xc8 9.Rh8xc8 Kh6-g5 10.Rc8-c7
² (0.58) Depth: 14 00:01:15 36402kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-e7 9.g2-g3 Re7-e1+ 10.Kg1-g2 Kh6-g6
² (0.59) Depth: 15 00:01:22 40129kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 Ra7-c7 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-c8 Rc7-e7 9.g2-g3 Re7-e1+ 10.Kg1-g2 Kh6-g6
² (0.59) Depth: 15 00:02:21 68701kN
1.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 2.Qe6-g4+ Kg7-f7 3.b2-b4 Qa5xb4 4.Qg4xb4 Be7xb4 5.Rc8xh8 Kf7-g7 6.Re1-e8 a6-a5 7.Re8-g8+ Kg7-h6 8.Rg8-b8 Ra7-c7 9.Rb8xb5 Rc7xc2 10.Kg1-f1 Kh6-g7 11.Rh8-d8
² (0.67) Depth: 16 00:02:32 74140kN
1.h2-h4
² (0.68) Depth: 16 00:03:56 110004kN
1.h2-h4
± (0.97) Depth: 16 00:04:46 130797kN
1.h2-h4 Qa5-b4 2.Re1-e3 Qb4-f4 3.Re3-f3 Qf4-c1+ 4.Kg1-h2 Qc1-h6 5.Rc3-c8+ Kf8-g7 6.Rf3-g3+ Qh6-g6 7.Rg3xg6+ h7xg6 8.Rc8xh8 Kg7xh8 9.Qe6-e3 Be7-d6+ 10.Kh2-h3 Ra7-g7 11.Qe3-e6 Bd6-e5 12.Qe6xa6
+- (2.61) Depth: 16 00:19:34 483795kN

(, 22.08.2007)



Uri
User avatar
tjfroh
Posts: 8087
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:51 pm
Location: Near the Intel Plant in the Land of Manana
Full name: Timothy Frohlick

Re: interesting position

Post by tjfroh »

New game
5k1r/r3b2p/p3Qp2/qp1p4/8/2R5/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 2.3 LK 32-bit :

1. ± (1.13): 1.h4 h5 2.b4 Qxb4 3.Ree3 Qd6 4.Rc8+ Kg7 5.Rg3+ Qxg3 6.Rxh8 Qxf2+ 7.Kxf2 Kxh8
2. ± (0.71): 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+

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User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Re: interesting position

Post by Eelco de Groot »

bob wrote:
I don't see the "big advantage for white after b4" myself. Here's current crafty's output:

Code: Select all

               13    12.58   0.07   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 Rc7 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rg4 a5
                                    9. Rb8 Rxc2 10. Rxb5 (s=15)
               13->  39.72   0.07   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 Rc7 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rg4 a5
                                    9. Rb8 Rxc2 10. Rxb5 (s=16)
               14    41.47   0.18   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 f5 7. Ra8 Rc7 8. Rhe8 Rxc2
                                    9. Ra7+ Kf6 10. Rxa6+ Kg5 (s=15)
               14->   2:05   0.18   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 f5 7. Ra8 Rc7 8. Rhe8 Rxc2
                                    9. Ra7+ Kf6 10. Rxa6+ Kg5 (s=16)
               15     2:11   0.14   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 a5 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rd8 Re7
                                    9. Rhe8 Rxe8 10. Rxe8 Kg5 11. Re6 (s=15)
               15->   7:25   0.14   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 a5 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rd8 Re7
                                    9. Rhe8 Rxe8 10. Rxe8 Kg5 11. Re6 (s=16)
               16     7:44   0.13   3. b4 Qxb4 4. Qxb4 Bxb4 5. Rxh8 Kg7
                                    6. Ree8 a5 7. Reg8+ Kh6 8. Rc8 Re7
                                    9. Rhe8 Kg5 10. Rb8 Rxe8 11. Rxe8 (s=15)

After 1.Rc8+ Kg7 2.Qg4+ Kf7 in three best moves mode, Fruit Mandarin's eval is about a pawn advantage after 3.b4 but the eval goes up only very slowly with deeper depths:

2R4r/r3bk1p/p4p2/qp1p4/6Q1/8/1PP2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

Engine: Fruit 2.3.1 Mandarin (256 MB)
by Fabien Letouzey, France

17 2:44 +0.87 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7
6.Ree8 a5 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Kf1 Re7
9.Re8 Rc7 10.Rb8 Rxc2 11.Rxb5 Bc5
12.Rxa5 Rxf2+ 13.Ke1 Rc2 14.Rb8 (122.768.011) 746

17 3:09 +0.33-- 3.Rc3 h5 4.Qd4 Rd7 5.Rce3 Qd8 6.b4 Kg7
7.Qd1 Bxb4 8.Rg3+ Kf8 9.Qxh5 (140.276.473) 746

17 4:04 +0.33-- 3.Qh5+ Kg7 4.b4 Qxb4 5.c3 Qf4 6.Rxh8 Kxh8
7.Qe8+ Kg7 8.Rxe7+ Rxe7 9.Qxe7+ Kh6
10.g3 Qg5 11.Qf8+ Kg6 12.Qe8+ Kg7
13.Qd7+ Kf8 14.Qxb5 (182.616.890) 746

________________________________________________________________


18 6:28 +0.90 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg7
6.Ree8 a5 7.Reg8+ Kh6 8.Kf1 Re7 9.g4 Re1+
10.Kg2 Re2 11.Rc8 Kg6 12.Rhg8+ Kf7
13.Rgd8 Re4 14.Rc7+ Be7 15.Kf3 Ke6
16.Ra8 (289.224.868) 737

18 7:15 +0.47-- 3.Rc3 h5 4.Qd4 Rd7 5.Rce3 Qd8 6.b4 Kg7
7.Rf3 Kf8 8.Re6 Rc7 9.Rexf6+ Bxf6
10.Rxf6+ Ke8 11.Rxa6 Kf7 12.Qf4+ Kg7
13.Qg3+ Kf8 14.Qf4+ Ke7 15.Qe5+ Kd7
16.Qxd5+ (322.092.189) 737

18 9:54 +0.47-- 3.Qh5+ Kg7 4.b4 Qxb4 5.Qxd5 Rxc8
6.Rxe7+ Rxe7 7.Qf5 Kh6 8.Qxf6+ Kh5
9.Qf5+ (438.425.825) 737

_________________________________________________________________


19 15:09 +0.96 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg6
6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rg8+ Kf7 8.Rd8 Ke6
9.g4 b4 10.Rd1 a5 11.R8xd5 a4 12.Rd6+ Ke5
13.f3 Kf4 14.Kf2 a3 15.R6d5 Be5
16.Rd7 (671.735.265) 729

19 16:50 +0.50-- 3.Rc3 h5 4.Qd4 Rd7 5.Rce3 Qd8 6.b4 Kg7
7.Rf3 Kf8 8.Re6 Rc7 9.c3 Rg8 10.Rxa6 Kg7
11.g3 Kf8 12.Raxf6+ Bxf6 13.Rxf6+ Ke7
14.Qe5+ Kd7 15.Qxd5+ Ke7 16.Qxb5 (737.754.239) 729

19 21:33 +0.50-- 3.Qh5+ Kg7 4.b4 Qxb4 5.Qxd5 Rxc8
6.Kf1 (944.060.056) 729

_________________________________________________________________


20 32:17 +0.90 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg6
6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rg8+ Kf7 8.Rd8 b4 9.Rxd5 a5
10.Rbd1 Ke6 11.Rd6+ Ke7 12.Kf1 a4
13.Rd8 Be5 14.g3 Ke6 15.Ke2 h5
16.Re8+ (1.413.692.252) 726

20 34:19 +0.56-- 3.Rc3 h5 4.Qd4 Rd7 5.Rce3 Qd8 6.b4 Kg7
7.Rf3 Kf8 8.Re6 Rc7 9.c3 Rg8 10.Rxa6 Kg7
11.Qd2 Kh7 12.Ra2 Rg7 13.Qc2+ Kh6
14.Qd2+ Kg6 (1.497.099.819) 726

20 47:34 +0.56-- 3.Qh5+ Kg7 4.b4 Qxb4 5.Qg4+ Qxg4
6.Rc6 Kh6 7.Rce6 Kg7 (2.072.904.635) 726

_________________________________________________________________


21 72:29 +0.92 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg6
6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rg8+ Kf7 8.Rd8 d4 9.Rh8 Kg6
10.Kf1 Re7 11.Rg8+ Kf5 12.Ra8 Re6
13.Rh8 Re7 14.Rd8 h5 15.Rd6 Re6 (3.168.967.512) 731

21 77:38 +0.50-- 3.Rc3 h5 4.Qd4 Rd7 5.Rce3 Qd8 6.b4 Kg7
7.Rf3 Kf8 8.Re6 Rc7 9.c3 Rg8 10.Rxa6 Kg7
11.g3 Kf8 12.Raxf6+ Bxf6 13.Rxf6+ Ke8
14.Qe5+ Re7 15.Qxh5+ Kd7 16.Qxd5+ (3.386.769.942) 731

21 113:21 +0.50-- 3.Qh5+ Kg7 4.Qxd5 Rxc8 5.Kf1 Rxc2
6.Qf3 (4.975.005.364) 731

_________________________________________________________________



After 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg6


[d]7R/r6p/p4pk1/1p1p4/1b6/8/2P2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

Engine: Fruit 2.3.1 Mandarin (256 MB)
by Fabien Letouzey, France

23 286:00 +1.09 6.Rg8+ Kf7 7.Ree8 a5 8.Ra8 Rc7
9.Rgc8 Rc4 10.Rxc4 bxc4 11.Kf1 Ke6
12.Ke2 h6 13.h4 Ke5 14.Re8+ Kf5
15.f3 a4 16.g4+ Kf4 17.Re6 Bc3
18.Ra6 f5 19.gxf5 (11.413.372.604) 662
TB:17.838

23 353:15 +1.00 6.Rd1 Rc7 7.Rxd5 Rxc2 8.f4 Rd2 9.f5+ Kg5
10.Rxd2 Bxd2 11.Kf1 Bc3 12.Ke2 Kxf5
13.Rxh7 Kg6 14.Rd7 a5 15.Kd3 Be5
16.Rd5 b4 17.Rxa5 Bxh2 18.Kc4 Bd6
19.Kb3 (14.065.045.742) 662
TB:17.838

23 417:12 +0.93 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf5 8.Rb8 a4
9.Rxb5 a3 10.Rxb4 a2 11.g4+ Ke6
12.Re8+ Kd6 13.Re1 a1Q 14.Rxa1 Rxa1+
15.Kg2 Ra2 16.Rf4 Ke5 17.Rf5+ Ke6
18.c3 Ra4 19.Kg3 (16.587.444.512) 662
TB:17.838

Eelco
Uri Blass
Posts: 10980
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: interesting position

Post by Uri Blass »

I think that white has a clear advantage.

My opinion is that Crafty simply overevaluate the a passed pawn of black because white has material advantage of rook for bishop and pawn and the positional advantage of having a passed pawn is not enough compensation.

Uri
User avatar
Eelco de Groot
Posts: 4680
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:40 am
Full name:   Eelco de Groot

Re: interesting position

Post by Eelco de Groot »

Maybe Black's biggest disadvantage is that it has too many "islands" of pawns, -well, they are really most just isolated pawns I suppose-, that do not work together if any enemy pawns can approach them especially White's f, g, and h-pawn, and they are vulnerable because White has two Rooks to attack them.

Here is output from Hiarcs 11.2 in the position after 3.b4 Qxb4 4.Qxb4 Bxb4 5.Rxh8 Kg6:


[d]7R/r6p/p4pk1/1p1p4/1b6/8/2P2PPP/4R1K1 w - -

Engine: HIARCS 11.2 [7,13,7] (256 MB)
by Mark John Uniacke

9/21 0:00 +0.53 6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rd8 d4 8.Kf1 Re7 9.Rd5 (196.847) 359

9/21 0:00 +0.53 6.Rd1 (226.420) 352

9/21 0:00 +0.55 6.Rd1 Rc7 7.Rg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Rxc2
9.Ra7+ Ke6 10.Rxa6+ Ke5 11.f4+ Ke4
12.Rxf6 Bc5+ (244.053) 346

10/22 0:01 +0.47 6.Rd1 Rc7 7.Rg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Rxc2
9.Rxa6 Bc5 10.Rb1 Bxf2+ 11.Kf1 d4
12.Ra7+ Kg6 13.Rxb5 (377.318) 354

10/22 0:01 +0.48 6.Rb1 (392.954) 358

10/22 0:01 +0.57 6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rd8 d4 8.f3 Rb7 9.Rd5 Kf7
10.Kf2 Ke6 (433.034) 359

11/26 0:02 +0.49 6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rd1 d4 8.Rb8 Kf5 9.Kf1 h5
10.Ke2 Rg7 11.g3 (883.668) 359

12/26 0:05 +0.50 6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rg8+ Kf5 8.Kf1 Be5 9.Rb3 Ke6
10.g3 Rc7 11.Ra8 (2.031.415) 361

13/28 0:11 +0.46 6.Rb1 Bc3 7.Rg8+ Kf7 8.Rd8 Ke6 9.Kf1 Rc7
10.Ra8 Rc6 11.g3 f5 12.Ke2 Be5
13.Re8+ (4.032.296) 362

13/28 0:11 +0.47 6.Rd1 (4.332.484) 361

13/28 0:12 +0.47 6.Rd1 Rc7 7.Rxd5 Rxc2 8.Kf1 Bc5 9.f4 b4 (4.615.724) 361

13/30 0:18 +0.48 6.Ree8 (6.435.931) 355

13/30 0:24 +0.64 6.Ree8 Kf5 7.Kf1 (8.834.019) 354

14/32 0:48 +0.77 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rb8 Rc7 8.Rxb5 Rxc2
9.Kf1 d4 10.Rg8+ Kf7 11.Rd8 Bc3
12.Rb7+ Kg6 13.Ra7 (17.178.597) 352

15/33 1:37 +0.81 6.Ree8 Kf5 7.Ra8 (34.092.916) 351

16/35 2:40 +0.83 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rb8 a4 8.Rxb5 a3 9.Rg8+ Kf7
10.Rgb8 Ke6 11.R8b6+ Bd6 12.Rb1 Rc7
13.Rc1 d4 14.Ra6 Kd5 15.Ra5+ Kc4 (55.269.875) 345

17/37 4:29 +0.82 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Re7 9.g3 d4
10.Rgb8 Re5 11.Rb7+ Kg6 12.Rg8+ Kf5
13.Rgb8 (91.641.377) 340

18/41 8:17 +0.73 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Re7 9.g3 Re5
10.Rgd8 a4 11.f4 Re1+ 12.Kg2 Rc1
13.Kh3 Rxc2 14.Rxd5 Rc5 15.Rxc5 (166.558.352) 334

18/41 8:56 +0.74 6.Rd1 (179.338.376) 333

18/41 11:02 +0.80 6.Rd1 Rc7 7.Rg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Rxc2
9.Kf1 Bc5 10.Rxd5 Rxf2+ 11.Ke1 Be3
12.Rd7+ Kg6 13.Rd3 Bc5 14.Rd5 (221.521.574) 334

19/41 15:33 +0.80 6.Rd1 Rc7 7.Rxd5 Rxc2 8.Kf1 f5 9.Ra8 Rc6
10.g3 Bd6 11.Ke2 Kf6 12.Rd1 Bc7
13.Rf8+ Ke6 14.Re8+ Kf6 15.Rd7 (312.724.214) 334

19/41 17:18 +0.81 6.Ree8 (346.899.937) 333

19/42 19:40 +0.82 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Re7 9.g3 Re5
10.Rgb8 d4 11.Rb7+ Kg6 12.Rg8+ Kf5
13.Rxh7 a4 14.Kg2 Bc5 15.Ra8 Ke4
16.f3+ Kd5 (393.400.570) 333

20/44 33:29 +0.91 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Re7 9.g3 d4
10.Rgd8 Bc3 11.Rdb8 Re1+ 12.Kg2 Re5
13.Ra7+ Kg6 14.Rg8+ Kf5 15.Rxh7 a4
16.Ra8 Ke4 17.Rd7 Bb2 18.Rda7 (667.915.018) 332 TB:3

21/46 75:46 +1.06 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf7 8.Ra8 Re7 9.g3 d4
10.Rgd8 Bc3 11.Rdb8 Re5 12.Rb7+ Kg6
13.Rg8+ Kf5 14.f4 Rc5 15.Rxh7 Ke4 (1.500.572.785) 330 TB:35

22/50 178:41 +1.03 6.Ree8 a5 7.Rhg8+ Kf5 8.Rb8 a4
9.Rxb5 a3 10.Rxb4 a2 11.g4+ Ke6
12.Re8+ Kd6 13.Re1 a1Q 14.Rxa1 Rxa1+
15.Kg2 Rc1 16.Rb2 (3.305.839.566) 308 TB:183

22/50 271:15 +1.03 6.Rg8+ (4.136.887.621) 254 TB:267

22/50 290:47 +1.04 6.Rg8+ Kf7 7.Ree8 a5 8.Ra8 Re7 9.g3 Rc7
10.Rgc8 (4.309.207.361) 246 TB:274

23/51 484:58 +1.17 6.Rg8+ Kf7 7.Ree8 Rc7 8.Rc8 Rxc2
9.Rxc2 Kxg8 10.Kf1 a5 11.Rc8+ Bf8
12.Rb8 b4 13.Ra8 b3 14.Rxa5 b2
15.Rb5 Ba3 16.Rb7 (6.023.633.529) 207 TB:470

best move: Rh8-g8 time: 515:12.093 min n/s: 203.305 nodes: 6.284.548.597 TB: 470