kns compare. Rybka, Zappa, Shredder

[kgburcham]

Deep Shredder 11 4300kns
Zappa Mexico II 3500 kns
Rybka 2.3.2a mp 440 kns

Vas had his reasons for doing this. This is old news. We all were aware of this the first time the green flag dropped. I do not feel Vas shorted me on anything for the money I have given him. I just assumed he had a good reason for doing this.
I have zero knowledge of code and programming, other than what I have picked up at this site. Not sure exactly why Vas wanted to hide the count. If he thinks he was fooling those on my level-----I always assumed Rybka counted (for example) in the posted position about 4000 kns----just add a 0 to the output. Sorry Vas if this is too low or too high but I believe your count is near other programs, plus or minus 25%.
Not sure why Vas decided it would be best for his agenda to lower the count to such an extreme. He had to know this extreme would cause a high level of attention to node count. Vas could have easily made Rybka count same as other programs or more than other programs.

Vas sitting at his work station drinking a beer, "Ok lets see which one of these do I want Rybka to show"? "I dont think all of these clowns will believe the 44400---hmmm ok---I will go with the 440 kns".
Rybka fast 44400 kns
Rybka true 4440 kns
Rybka slow 440 kns

This I know:
I know exact time to fill 2048 hash with all my programs.
I know time to solve on my programs.
I know the task manager shows 4x at 100%.
I have sources I trust with Rybka winning tournaments against top programs.

One other thing comes to mind with this kns cover up---sometimes we will do something obvious on the racecar so that when we go through the tech line it will distract others from what we are really trying to hide.
kburcham



[d] 8/8/4kpp1/3p1b2/p6P/2B5/6P1/6K1 b - - 47

Zappa Mexico II x64
Hash 1024

22/47 1:56 -2.13 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.g3 Ke4 50.Bb2 Bg4 51.Ke1 Kd3 52.Kf2 d4 53.Ke1 Bf3 54.Kf2 Be2 55.Kg2 Bh5 (405.939.079) 3494
23/57 3:46 -2.56 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Be4 51.Kf2 Bb1 52.Kf3 g5 53.h5 g4+ 54.Kf2 Kg5 55.h6 Be4 56.Bc1+ Kg6 57.Kg3 f5 58.Kf2 d4 59.Kg3 (818.712.088) 3611

Rybka 2.3.2a mp x64
Hash 1024

32.01 1:26 -1.93 47...Be4 48.g3 f5 49.Kf2 Kd6 50.Bb2 Kc5 51.Ke3 Kb4 52.Bd4 a3 53.Kd2 Kc4 54.Ke3 (37.192.617) 441
33.01 2:08 -1.93 47...Be4 48.g3 f5 49.Kf2 Kd6 50.Bb2 Kc5 51.Ke3 Kb4 52.Bd4 a3 53.Kd2 Kc4 54.Ke3 (55.346.906) 441
34.01 3:00 -1.93 47...Be4 48.g3 f5 49.Kf2 Kd6 50.Bb2 Kc5 51.Ke3 Kb4 52.Bd4 a3 53.Kd2 Kc4 54.Ke3 (77.331.472) 439



Deep Shredder 11 x32
Hash 1024

29/59 1:08 -2.04 47...Be4 48.Kf2 f5 49.g3 Kd6 50.Bd4 Kc6 51.Ke3 Kb5 52.Kf4 Kc4 53.Ke3 a3 54.Be5 Bb1 55.Bd4 Bd3 56.Be5 Be4 57.Bd4 (292.235.301) 4296
30/58 1:59 -2.04 47...Be4 48.Kf2 f5 49.g3 Kd6 50.Bd4 Kc6 51.Ke3 Kb5 52.Kf4 Kc4 53.Ke3 a3 54.Be5 Bb1 55.Bd4 Bd3 56.Be5 Be4 57.Bd4 (513.993.081) 4283
31/62 4:53 -2.03 47...Be4 48.Kf2 f5 49.g3 Kd6 50.Bd4 Kc6 51.Ke3 Kb5 52.Kf4 Kc4 53.Ke3 a3 54.Be5 Bb1 55.Bd4 Bd3 56.Be5 Be4 57.Bd4 (1.277.989.630) 4360


[Event "It (cat.21)"]
[Site "Linares (Spain)"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Veselin Topalov"]
[Black "Alexey Shirov"]
[ECO "D85"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3
6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bb5+ c6 8. Ba4 O-O 9. Ne2 Nd7 10. O-O e5
11. f3 Qe7 12. Be3 Rd8 13. Qc2 Nb6 14. Bb3 Be6 15. Rad1 Nc4
16. Bc1 b5 17. f4 exd4 18. Nxd4 Bg4 19. Rde1 Qc5 20. Kh1 a5
21. h3 Bd7 22. a4 bxa4 23. Ba2 Be8 24. e5 Nb6 25. f5 Nd5
26. Bd2 Nb4 27. Qxa4 Nxa2 28. Qxa2 Bxe5 29. fxg6 hxg6
30. Bg5 Rd5 31. Re3 Qd6 32. Qe2 Bd7 33. c4 Bxd4 34. cxd5
Bxe3 35. Qxe3 Re8 36. Qc3 Qxd5 37. Bh6 Re5 38. Rf3 Qc5
39. Qa1 Bf5 40. Re3 f6 41. Rxe5 Qxe5 42. Qa2+ Qd5 43. Qxd5+
cxd5 44. Bd2 a4 45. Bc3 Kf7 46. h4 Ke6 47. Kg1 Bh3 48. gxh3
Kf5 49. Kf2 Ke4 50. Bxf6 d4 51. Be7 Kd3 52. Bc5 Kc4 53. Be7
Kb3 0-1












[Event "It (cat.21)"]
[Site "Linares (Spain)"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Veselin Topalov"]
[Black "Alexey Shirov"]
[ECO "D85"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3
6. bxc3 Bg7 7. Bb5+ c6 8. Ba4 O-O 9. Ne2 Nd7 10. O-O e5
11. f3 Qe7 12. Be3 Rd8 13. Qc2 Nb6 14. Bb3 Be6 15. Rad1 Nc4
16. Bc1 b5 17. f4 exd4 18. Nxd4 Bg4 19. Rde1 Qc5 20. Kh1 a5
21. h3 Bd7 22. a4 bxa4 23. Ba2 Be8 24. e5 Nb6 25. f5 Nd5
26. Bd2 Nb4 27. Qxa4 Nxa2 28. Qxa2 Bxe5 29. fxg6 hxg6
30. Bg5 Rd5 31. Re3 Qd6 32. Qe2 Bd7 33. c4 Bxd4 34. cxd5
Bxe3 35. Qxe3 Re8 36. Qc3 Qxd5 37. Bh6 Re5 38. Rf3 Qc5
39. Qa1 Bf5 40. Re3 f6 41. Rxe5 Qxe5 42. Qa2+ Qd5 43. Qxd5+
cxd5 44. Bd2 a4 45. Bc3 Kf7 46. h4 Ke6 47. Kg1 Bh3 48. gxh3
Kf5 49. Kf2 Ke4 50. Bxf6 d4 51. Be7 Kd3 52. Bc5 Kc4 53. Be7
Kb3 0-1

[ernest]

Zappa Mexico II x64
Hash 1024

22/47 1:56 -2.13 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.g3 Ke4 50.Bb2 Bg4 51.Ke1 Kd3 52.Kf2 d4 53.Ke1 Bf3 54.Kf2 Be2 55.Kg2 Bh5 (405.939.079) 3494
23/57 3:46 -2.56 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Be4 51.Kf2 Bb1 52.Kf3 g5 53.h5 g4+ 54.Kf2 Kg5 55.h6 Be4 56.Bc1+ Kg6 57.Kg3 f5 58.Kf2 d4 59.Kg3 (818.712.088) 3611

Nice, but not reproducible...

8/8/4kpp1/3p1b2/p6P/2B5/6P1/6K1 b - -

Engine: Zappa Mexico II (1024 MB) by Anthony Cozzie
21/38 1:20 +1.62 1...a3 2.Kf2 Be4 3.g3 g5 4.hxg5 fxg5 5.Ke3 Kf5 6.Bd4 Kg4 7.Kf2 a2 8.Be5 Bd3 9.Bd4 (100.027.726) 1236 TB:1.124
22/38 1:40 +1.62 1...a3 2.Kf2 Be4 3.g3 g5 4.hxg5 fxg5 5.Ke3 Kf5 6.Bd4 Kg4 7.Kf2 a2 8.Be5 Bd3 9.Bd4 Kf5 10.Ke3 Be4 11.Kf2 Kg4 (126.502.262) 1255 TB:1.566
22/40 2:15 +1.63 1...Be4 2.g3 f5 3.Kf2 Kd6 4.Bd4 Kc6 5.Ke3 Kb5 6.Kf4 Kc4 7.Ke3 a3 8.Bf6 a2 9.Bd4 Bd3 10.Be5 Bc2 (168.983.317) 1251 TB:2.127
22/40 2:45 +1.63 1...Be4 2.g3 f5 3.Kf2 Kd6 4.Bd4 Kc6 5.Ke3 Kb5 6.Kf4 Kc4 7.Ke3 a3 8.Bf6 a2 9.Bd4 Bd3 10.Be5 Bc2 (209.973.539) 1269 TB:2.941
23/47 3:21 +1.63 1...Be4 2.g3 f5 3.Kf2 Kd6 4.Bd4 Kc6 5.Ke3 Kb5 6.Kf4 Kc4 7.Ke3 a3 8.Bf6 a2 9.Bd4 Bd3 10.Be5 Bc2 11.Bd4 (257.354.828) 1274 TB:3.673
23/47 4:27 +1.63 1...Be4 2.g3 f5 3.Kf2 Kd6 4.Bd4 Kc6 5.Ke3 Kb5 6.Kf4 Kc4 7.Ke3 a3 8.Bf6 a2 9.Bd4 Bd3 10.Be5 Bc2 11.Bd4 Be4 (344.874.863) 1286 TB:7.903
24/47 5:13 +1.63 1...Be4 2.g3 f5 3.Kf2 Kd6 4.Bd4 Kc6 5.Ke3 Kb5 6.Kf4 Kc4 7.Ke3 a3 8.Bf6 a2 9.Bd4 Bd3 10.Be5 Bc2 11.Bd4 Bb1 12.Be5 Be4 13.Bd4 (403.964.014) 1290 TB:9.307
24/53 10:57 +1.84 1...Bc2 2.Kf2 Kf5 3.Ke3 a3 4.g3 Kg4 5.Bxf6 Kxg3 6.Kd4 Be4 7.Kc3 a2 8.Kb3 Bb1 9.Ka3 Kf3 10.Kb4 Kg4 11.Ka4 Kf5 12.Bb2 Ke4 (838.052.816) 1275 TB:18.250
24/53 11:49 +1.84 1...Bc2 2.Kf2 Kf5 3.Ke3 a3 4.g3 Kg4 5.Bxf6 Kxg3 6.Kd4 Be4 7.Kc3 a2 8.Kb3 Bb1 9.Ka3 Kf3 10.Kb4 Kg4 11.Ka4 Kf5 12.Bb2 Ke4 (908.879.336) 1280 TB:18.837
25/69 16:02 +1.96 1...Bc2 2.Kf2 Kf5 3.Ke3 a3 4.g3 Kg4 5.Bxf6 Kxg3 6.Kd4 Be4 7.Kc3 a2 8.Kb3 Bb1 9.Ka3 Kf3 10.Kb4 Kg4 11.Kc5 d4 12.Bxd4 Kxh4 13.Kb4 g5 14.Ka3 g4 (1.219.766.383) 1266 TB:26.471
25/69 20:27 +1.96 1...Bc2 2.Kf2 Kf5 3.Ke3 a3 4.g3 Kg4 5.Bxf6 Kxg3 6.Kd4 Be4 7.Kc3 a2 8.Kb3 Bb1 9.Ka3 Kf3 10.Kb4 Kg4 11.Kc5 d4 12.Bxd4 Kxh4 13.Kb4 g5 14.Ka3 g4 (1.561.078.626) 1271 TB:36.062
best move: Bf5-c2 time: 21:50.657 min n/s: 1.162.627 nodes: 1.653.599.054 TB: 40.196

[kgburcham]

[d] 8/8/4kpp1/3p1b2/p6P/2B5/6P1/6K1 b - - 47

Zappa Mexico II
Hash 1024

22/45 0:48 -1.63 47...Be4 48.g3 f5 49.Bb2 Kd6 50.Kf2 Kc5 51.Ke3 Kc4 52.Bd4 a3 53.Be5 Kc5 54.Bc3 Bc2 55.Bd4+ Kc4 56.Bf6 Be4 57.Be5 (154.554.421) 3183
22/48 1:41 -1.83 47...Bh3 48.gxh3 Kf5 49.Kf2 Ke4 50.Bb2 d4 51.Bc1 f5 52.Ba3 d3 53.Ke1 f4 54.Kd2 f3 55.Ke1 Kd4 56.Bb2+ Kc4 57.Kf2 d2 58.Kxf3 d1Q+ 59.Ke3 (350.875.296) 3470
22/48 1:41 -1.83 47...Bh3 48.gxh3 Kf5 49.Kf2 Ke4 50.Bb2 d4 51.Bc1 f5 52.Ba3 d3 53.Ke1 f4 54.Kd2 f3 55.Ke1 Kd4 56.Bb2+ Kc4 57.Kf2 d2 58.Kxf3 d1Q+ 59.Ke3 (351.695.607) 3468
best move: Bf5-h3 time: 2:37.110 min n/s: 3.712.240 nodes: 563.077.897


22/49 0:51 -1.63 47...Be4 48.g3 f5 49.Kf2 Kd6 50.Ke3 Kc5 51.Bb2 Kc4 52.Bd4 Kb3 53.Kd2 a3 54.Bf6 a2 55.Bd4 Kb4 56.Ke3 Kc4 (162.229.687) 3177
22/49 1:29 -1.72 47...Bh3 48.gxh3 Kf5 49.Kf2 Ke4 50.Bb2 f5 51.Ba3 d4 52.Ke1 Kd3 53.Bb2 f4 54.Kd1 Kc4 55.Ke1 d3 56.Kd2 f3 57.Kc1 f2 58.Ba3 f1Q+ 59.Kd2 Qxh3 (301.506.437) 3364
22/49 1:29 -1.72 47...Bh3 48.gxh3 Kf5 49.Kf2 Ke4 50.Bb2 f5 51.Ba3 d4 52.Ke1 Kd3 53.Bb2 f4 54.Kd1 Kc4 55.Ke1 d3 56.Kd2 f3 57.Kc1 f2 58.Ba3 f1Q+ 59.Kd2 Qxh3 (302.426.195) 3362
23/56 3:59 -2.61 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Bh1 51.Kd3 g5 52.hxg5 fxg5 53.Ba3 g4 54.Bd6 Bf3 55.Ke3 Be4 56.Ke2 d4 57.Kf2 Ke6 58.Ba3 (835.648.849) 3493
23/56 4:12 -2.61 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Bh1 51.Kd3 g5 52.hxg5 fxg5 53.Ba3 g4 54.Bd6 Bf3 55.Ke3 Be4 56.Ke2 d4 57.Kf2 Ke6 58.Ba3 (877.415.592) 3480
24/61 6:57 -2.67 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Bh1 51.Kd3 g5 52.hxg5 fxg5 53.Ba3 g4 54.Bd6 Be4+ 55.Kc3 Bf3 56.Kd3 Ke6 57.Bf4 Bd1 58.Kd2 a3 59.Kc1 (1.474.940.326) 3529
24/61 7:18 -2.67 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Bh1 51.Kd3 g5 52.hxg5 fxg5 53.Ba3 g4 54.Bd6 Be4+ 55.Kc3 Bf3 56.Kd3 Ke6 57.Bf4 Bd1 58.Kd2 a3 59.Kc1 (1.546.055.737) 3522
25/61 12:47 -2.69 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Bh1 51.Kd3 g5 52.hxg5 fxg5 53.Ba3 g4 54.Bd6 Be4+ 55.Kc3 Bf3 56.Kd3 Ke6 57.Bc5 g3 58.Ke3 Be4 59.Kd4 g2 60.Bb4 (2.749.832.100) 3584
25/61 13:49 -2.69 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Bh1 51.Kd3 g5 52.hxg5 fxg5 53.Ba3 g4 54.Bd6 Be4+ 55.Kc3 Bf3 56.Kd3 Ke6 57.Bc5 g3 58.Ke3 Be4 59.Kd4 g2 60.Bb4 (2.956.113.059) 3565
best move: Bf5-h3 time: 23:11.781 min n/s: 3.325.438 nodes: 5.071.488.405



21/43 0:30 -1.63 47...a3 48.g3 Be4 49.Kf2 g5 50.hxg5 fxg5 51.Bh8 Kf5 52.Ke3 a2 53.Bb2 Kg4 54.Kf2 Bb1 55.Bc3 Bd3 56.Ke3 Be4 57.Kf2 (98.539.439) 3206
21/47 0:38 -1.63 47...a3 48.g3 Be4 49.Kf2 g5 50.hxg5 fxg5 51.Bh8 Kf5 52.Ke3 a2 53.Bb2 Kg4 54.Kf2 Bb1 55.Bc3 Bd3 56.Ke3 Be4 57.Kf2 (121.656.409) 3193
22/47 0:47 -1.63 47...a3 48.g3 Be4 49.Kf2 g5 50.hxg5 fxg5 51.Ke3 Kf5 52.Bb4 a2 53.Bc3 Kg4 54.Kf2 Bd3 55.Ke3 Bb1 56.Kf2 Bd3 (155.343.840) 3272
22/58 1:56 -2.12 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.g3 Ke4 50.Bb2 Bg4 51.Ke1 Kd3 52.Kf2 d4 53.Ke1 f5 54.Kf2 Bh5 55.Ke1 Bf3 56.Kf2 Be4 57.Kf1 Ke3 58.Ke1 (408.596.523) 3493
22/58 1:57 -2.12 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.g3 Ke4 50.Bb2 Bg4 51.Ke1 Kd3 52.Kf2 d4 53.Ke1 f5 54.Kf2 Bh5 55.Ke1 Bf3 56.Kf2 Be4 57.Kf1 Ke3 58.Ke1 (409.470.623) 3490
best move: Bf5-h3 time: 3:50.937 min n/s: 3.170.707 nodes: 811.304.884

[Bill Rogers]

This is a wild guesstimate but it is also a possiblility. Larry as well as a few others seem to think that Vas is not counting every node because as they see it there should be hundreds if not thousands of more nodes in his count. If in fact he generated every possible move for sevaral plys in his program as well he might then the node count could be much higher but on the other hand if he is using a lot of forward pruning it could be thousand of nodes less. We must remember that a Master Chess player is confiding with him on this program Larry K. So if on generating moves for a single ply he comes up with say 45 possible move but then they reduce that down to on 15 moves to be examined and the rest discarded then the node count will never be as large as people would think it should be. Just because no one that I know of has used this technique does not mean that it has not been use so far. I even proposed such a thing a few months ago as I noted that my own program always seemed to choose one of the top five moves that it generated on all levels. Stop and count the nodes, five to the sixth power is a lot less than 40 to the sixth power.
Bill

[PauloSoare]

I remember that one version of Shredder (or Hiarcs?), which showed a small number of Kn/s. This version was launched in 1999 or 2000.
It would be a case similar to that of Rybka?

Paulo Soares

[Martin Thoresen]

I don't understand why people are so interested in the node count.

To me, it sounds that if a program is strong but displays a low node count, it has great chess knowledge. It simply just knows what to count and what not to count.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

I don't understand why people are so interested in the node count.

To me, it sounds that if a program is strong but displays a low node count, it has great chess knowledge. It simply just knows what to count and what not to count.

I understand the issue exactly like you do,but some users think that it's also masking the whole analysis line....

[Tony Thomas]

I don't understand why people are so interested in the node count.

To me, it sounds that if a program is strong but displays a low node count, it has great chess knowledge. It simply just knows what to count and what not to count.

In the case of Rybka this is simply not true. Rybka is not a slow searcher, it was disguised to look like one..