2008 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

User avatar
michiguel
Posts: 6401
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Re: Rule six

Post by michiguel »

hgm wrote:Well, that would in principle run into the same problem at level 2, that by the time all moves have bean searched there, the tree from the search of the PV move might be overwritten. At some depth of course this will be no longer true, as the entire PV tree will fit easily in the hash. But it depends on the TC at which level this works.

The easiest solution would be to implement the triangualr-array method. But actually I think this is beyond what is reasonable to request. If it was about thata that the engine naturally has, I would be happy to print it. But having to add code to emulate how another engine would do it, only to satisfy a request for output that in itself has nothing to do with playing Chess goes a bridge too far. Micro-Max is a project for making the smallest Chess-playing program, not the smallest PV-printing program. If that makes it not welcome on certain tournaments, so be it.

Micro-Max is a deterministic engine, highly insensitive to timing jitter as it finishes each iteration, And it kibitzes depth. So if there would be any doubt with the organizer that some other entity that micro-Max was making the moves, it could be easily and objectively verified.
I was away from the forum for a while, but I remember how all this started. It was about CCT. Please correct me If I am wrong. At the beginning some manual operators were allowed but then everybody move away from that.

Kibitzing was a way to show that the engine was in an automated mode with no (obvious) intervention from the operator. In other words, the requirement should be that the engine should show whatever information is normally available for the user. In my opinion, in µMax's case, plies searched, nodes, time, and evaluation should be enough. For instance, if an "out of the norm" engine has an evaluation in % of chances of winning, it should not be converted to centipawns just to look like the rest.

It is nice to see what the other engine is thinking, in its own way!

Miguel
CRoberson
Posts: 2077
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:31 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Rule six

Post by CRoberson »

Rule 6 is a requirement not a suggestion. The only part of it that isn't
a requirment is kibitzing a message that a move came from book.

Sometimes people have difficultiy getting kibitz to work properly
due to interface issues. Sometimes people forget to turn it on.
Sometimes the opponent complains and the engine is kibitzing,
but he doesn't see it because his allowkib variable is incorrectly
set.

Especially, because of the last issue, there isn't an instant DQ/forfeit
for not kibitzing. I give people a few rounds to get it right. If they
just forgot to turn on kibitzing - they should logout and restart the
engine and pickup where the game left off. However, we occasionally
run into an engine that can't restart where it left off. In that case,
they have till the next round.

First timers typically have the problem of using Arena which claims to
allow kibitzing, but I've never heard of anyone that could get it to work.
The UCI engines have the most issues and gravitate to Arena and
Chess Assistant. I hear Chess Assistant works, but it takes some effort.

We have never had a tournament where an engine was allowed to
skip rule 6 for the entire tournament.

On the topic of exact info kibitzed:
There are 6 things required and they are stated on the kibitz web page
linked in rule 6. PV is one of those things. In MiroMax's case, the move
being made is sufficient assuming all the other info is there.

The rule is to help stop cheating. So, if you print out the move value
in probability of winning instead of centipawns then that is fine as long
as it is labeled as such - people need to understand the output.

I am willing to work with any author that has problems because the
engine lacks some features.
FrancoisK
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:46 pm

Looking for an operator for BugChess2

Post by FrancoisK »

Hi :)

Unfortunately i won't be available at this date, but if someone is interested in operating BugChess2 (version 1.6), just tell me.

Cheers

François
User avatar
sje
Posts: 4675
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:43 pm

Re: Rule six

Post by sje »

Symbolic sometimes emits a single move PV: book moves, tablebase moves, only one move available, etc., and I think that's acceptable and is in no way trying to hide or disguise analysis.

The program also outputs the expected score including a mapping to LoseInN or MateInN as appropriate; I don't expect others to know about Symbolic's mapping between 32 bit micropawn scores and mate/lose indications.

There's other, less important data: node frequency, tablebase access count, search termination status. But these are really fluff. Just a PV and a score will suffice, and I wonder why there are many strong programs playing on the servers that just can't seem to do this.

Then again, there could be reason to deactivate whispering analysis for server play against human opponents. In the past I have seen cases, some quite suggestive, where relatively week human players start playing quite well when my program is whispering analysis to various observers. I can't prove that there's a clandestine feedback, but I can't disprove it either.
jdart
Posts: 4375
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:23 am
Location: http://www.arasanchess.org

Re: Looking for an operator for BugChess2

Post by jdart »

I can operate 1 or more programs as required (I was Telepath operator for the recent ACCA Presidents Tournament event).

--Jon
CRoberson
Posts: 2077
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:31 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Looking for an operator for BugChess2

Post by CRoberson »

Really, How did you get a copy of Telepath?
CRoberson
Posts: 2077
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:31 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: 2008 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships

Post by CRoberson »

We are up to 13 entrants from 8 countries.
New to enter is:
BugChess2 by Francios & Jean Philippe Karr
Edsel Apostol
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:53 am
Full name: Edsel Apostol

Re: 2008 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships

Post by Edsel Apostol »

Hi Charles,

I have already sent you an e-mail about Twisted Logic's registration. Let me know if you haven't received it.
Edsel Apostol
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:53 am
Full name: Edsel Apostol

Re: 2008 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships

Post by Edsel Apostol »

I have just seen your reply to my e-mail in my spam folder. :oops:
CRoberson
Posts: 2077
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:31 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: 2008 World Computer Rapid Chess Championships

Post by CRoberson »

New entry:
TwistedLogic by Edsel Aposto

That makes 14 entries from 9 countries.
There are only 4 weeks left to register.l