Won for Black?

[JVMerlino]

[d]8/8/8/3R4/4p2p/P6P/1r2k1P1/6K1 w - - 0 51

In Bacrot v. Waitzkin (this game is analyzed in Josh Waitzkin's Endgame Course in Chessmaster), Josh says that this endgame is won for Black. This position didn't actually arise in the game, but Josh says he could have forced it if he had played 48...Kd3 49.Rxg5 e4 50.Rd5+ Ke2 instead of 48...Kf4.

What do some top engines say? With the help of The King, it looks like White might be able to save the draw with 51.g4!

Here's the complete game if anybody's interested.

[Event "Bermuda"]
[Date "1999.01.27"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Bacrot, E."]
[Black "Waitzkin, J."]
[ECO "D20"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 e5 4.Nf3 exd4 5.Bxc4 Nc6 6.O-O Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6
8.Qb3 Qd7 9.Qxb7 Rb8 10.Qa6 Nf6 11.Nbd2 Bd6 12.a3 O-O 13.Qd3 Ng4 14.h3
Nge5 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.Qxd4 Ng4 17.Kh1 c5 18.Qd3 Nxf2+ 19.Rxf2 Rxf2 20.e5
Rd8 21.exd6 Qxd6 22.Qxd6 Rxd6 23.Kg1 Rdxd2 24.Bxd2 Rxd2 25.Rc1 Rxb2
26.Rxc5 Rb7 27.Ra5 Kf7 28.Kf2 Kf6 29.Kf3 h5 30.Ke4 h4 31.Kf4 Rc7 32.Kg4
Rc4+ 33.Kf3 Rc3+ 34.Kf2 Rc7 35.Kf3 g5 36.Ke3 Rc3+ 37.Kf2 Rc7 38.Ke3 Rb7
39.Kf3 Rb3+ 40.Kf2 Rb7 41.Ke3 Rc7 42.Kf3 Rb7 43.Ke3 Rb3+ 44.Kf2 e5
45.Rxa7 Kf5 46.Rf7+ Ke4 47.Rg7 Rb2+ 48.Kg1 Kf4 49.Rf7+ Ke3 50.Rf3+ Kd4 51.Rf2 1/2

jm

[Terry McCracken]

[d]8/8/8/3R4/4p2p/P6P/1r2k1P1/6K1 w - - 0 51

In Bacrot v. Waitzkin (this game is analyzed in Josh Waitzkin's Endgame Course in Chessmaster), Josh says that this endgame is won for Black. This position didn't actually arise in the game, but Josh says he could have forced it if he had played 48...Kd3 49.Rxg5 e4 50.Rd5+ Ke2 instead of 48...Kf4.

What do some top engines say? With the help of The King, it looks like White might be able to save the draw with 51.g4!

Here's the complete game if anybody's interested.

[Event "Bermuda"]
[Date "1999.01.27"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Bacrot, E."]
[Black "Waitzkin, J."]
[ECO "D20"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e4 e5 4.Nf3 exd4 5.Bxc4 Nc6 6.O-O Be6 7.Bxe6 fxe6
8.Qb3 Qd7 9.Qxb7 Rb8 10.Qa6 Nf6 11.Nbd2 Bd6 12.a3 O-O 13.Qd3 Ng4 14.h3
Nge5 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.Qxd4 Ng4 17.Kh1 c5 18.Qd3 Nxf2+ 19.Rxf2 Rxf2 20.e5
Rd8 21.exd6 Qxd6 22.Qxd6 Rxd6 23.Kg1 Rdxd2 24.Bxd2 Rxd2 25.Rc1 Rxb2
26.Rxc5 Rb7 27.Ra5 Kf7 28.Kf2 Kf6 29.Kf3 h5 30.Ke4 h4 31.Kf4 Rc7 32.Kg4
Rc4+ 33.Kf3 Rc3+ 34.Kf2 Rc7 35.Kf3 g5 36.Ke3 Rc3+ 37.Kf2 Rc7 38.Ke3 Rb7
39.Kf3 Rb3+ 40.Kf2 Rb7 41.Ke3 Rc7 42.Kf3 Rb7 43.Ke3 Rb3+ 44.Kf2 e5
45.Rxa7 Kf5 46.Rf7+ Ke4 47.Rg7 Rb2+ 48.Kg1 Kf4 49.Rf7+ Ke3 50.Rf3+ Kd4 51.Rf2 1/2

jm

This looks really bad for White. I see no way to stop e3! and Rd2 etc.

Terry

[Dan]

[d]8/8/8/3R4/4p1Pp/P6P/1r2k3/6K1 b - g3 0 1
51. ...Rb3!

0:00 3/9 -0.53 76174 1...hxg3ep 2.Kg2 e3 3.h4 Rb1 4.Kxg3 Rg1+ 5.Kh2 Rh1+ 6.Kxh1 Kf2
0:01 3/10 -0.54 132089 1...hxg3ep 2.Kg2 e3 3.h4 Rb6 4.a4 Rg6 5.Re5 Kd3 6.a5
0:02 3/11 -0.53 275096 1...hxg3ep 2.Kg2 e3 3.h4 Rb8 4.Re5 Rg8 5.a4 Kd2 6.Rd5+ Kc3 7.a5
0:03 4/12 -0.40 529417 1...hxg3ep 2.Kg2 Ra2 3.Re5 Ke3+ 4.Kxg3 Rxa3 5.Kg4 Ra8 6.h4 Kd4 7.Re6 Rh8
0:11 5/13 -0.51 1836409 1...hxg3ep 2.Kg2 Ra2 3.Re5 Ke3+ 4.Kxg3 Rxa3 5.Re8 Kd2+ 6.Kf4 Rf3+ 7.Kg4 Ke3 8.Kh4 Rf5 9.Kg4
0:22 6/14 -0.45 3750212 1...hxg3ep 2.Kg2 Ra2 3.h4 Rxa3 4.h5 Ra1 5.h6 Ra6 6.h7 Rh6 7.Ra5 e3 8.Ra2+ Kd3 9.Ra3+ Kd2
0:39 6/14 -0.55 6582987 1...Kf3 2.g5 e3 3.Rf5+ Kg3 4.Kf1 Kxh3 5.Re5 Kg4 6.g6 Rb6 7.a4 Rxg6 8.a5 Ra6
1:16 7/15 -0.46 12781559 1...Kf3 2.g5 e3 3.Rf5+ Kg3 4.Kf1 Kxh3 5.Re5 Kg4 6.g6 Rb6 7.Rxe3 Rf6+ 8.Kg2 Rxg6 9.a4 Kf4+ 10.Kf2
1:37 7/15 -0.59 16557096 1...Ra2 2.Ra5 Kf3 3.g5 Ra1+ 4.Kh2 e3 5.Rf5+ Ke4 6.Rf6 Ra2+ 7.Kg1 Rxa3 8.Kf1 Ra5 9.g6 Rg5 10.Re6+ Kf5 11.Rxe3 Kxg6
2:50 8/16 -0.74 29119589 1...Ra2 2.Ra5 Kf3 3.g5 e3 4.Rf5+ Kg3 5.Kf1 Kxh3 6.Rc5 Kg3 7.g6 Rf2+ 8.Ke1 Rf6 9.Rg5+ Kf4 10.g7 Kxg5 11.a4
3:55 8/16 -0.79 40256251 1...Rb3 2.Re5 Kf3 3.a4 Rb1+ 4.Kh2 Rb2+ 5.Kg1 Ra2 6.Rf5+ Kg3 7.g5 Rxa4 8.Kf1 Ra6 9.Rf6 Ra5 10.g6 Rg5 11.Ke2 Rxg6
5:55 9/17 -1.31 61532860 1...Rb3 2.Re5 Rg3+ 3.Kh2 e3 4.a4 Kf2 5.a5 e2 6.Rf5+ Ke3 7.Re5+ Kd2 8.a6 e1=Q 9.Rxe1 Kxe1 10.g5 Ra3 11.Kg2 Rxa6 12.Kf3 Rg6
18:26 10/18 -1.81 187059440 1...Rb3 2.a4 Rxh3 3.g5 e3 4.a5 Kf3 5.Rf5+ Ke4 6.Rc5 Rg3+ 7.Kf1 h3 8.g6 Rxg6 9.Rh5 Rf6+ 10.Ke1 Ra6 11.Ke2 Rxa5 12.Rxh3

analysis by Chessmaster 10th Ed. <<CM_Xtreme>>
1.7 gHz Celeron

[JVMerlino]

Maybe so, but I'm playing through some lines and I'm having a tough time finding a forced win (quite possibly because I'm terrible at chess!).

From the position, 51.g4! looks like it could save the draw.

If 51...hxg3ep, then 52.Kg2 e3 53.h4 Rd2 54.Re5 Kd1+ 55.Kxg3 e2 56.Kg4! Rd4+ 57.Kg5 Ra4 58.Rxe2 Kxe2 59.h5 1/2

If 51...Kf3, then 52.Rf5+ Kg3 53.a4 e3 54.Kf1 Kxh3 55.Rf3+ Kxg4 56.Rxe3 1/2

If, in the above line, 53...Kxh3, then 54.g5 Rg2+ 55.Kf1 e3 56.Re5 Kh2 57.a5 1/2

These all seem like optimum responses for White, but I strongly suspect I'm missing something.

jm

[JVMerlino]

Still not convinced. In the last line of CM_Xtreme's analysis, switch from 6.Rc5 to 6.Rf7! Rg3+ 7.Kf1 Rxg5 8.Re7+ Kd4 (or Kf3) 9.a6 Ra5, and I'm still not seeing the win.

jm

[Terry McCracken]

Still not convinced. In the last line of CM_Xtreme's analysis, switch from 6.Rc5 to 6.Rf7! Rg3+ 7.Kf1 Rxg5 8.Re7+ Kd4 (or Kf3) 9.a6 Ra5, and I'm still not seeing the win.

jm

Jim I don't see how White can prevent the e-pawn from Queening?

You don't have to play en passant, although you probably can and still win with Black.

The e-pawn, Black's King and Rook look to be too much for White to deal with in this position. Why waste time? Get the pawn down quickly with added protection from the Rook and support with the King right to the bottom rank.

Terry

[JVMerlino]

Jim I don't see how White can prevent the e-pawn from Queening?

You don't have to play en passant, although you probably can and still win with Black.

The e-pawn, Black's King and Rook look to be too much for White to deal with in this position. Why waste time? Get the pawn down quickly with added protection from the Rook and support with the King right to the bottom rank.

Terry

I looked at lines where Black queens the Pawn and wins the Rook. They appear to be drawn because White will have pawns on both the a and h (or g) files. Here is one sample line if we start 51.g4 hxg3ep:

51.g4 hxg3ep 52.Kg2 e3 53.h4 Rd2 54.Re5 Kd1+ 55.Kxg3 e2 56.Kg4 Rd4+ 57.Kg5 e1=Q 58.Rxe1+ Kxe1 59.h5 1/2

Here's another line if Black plays 51...Kf3, for example:
51.g4 Kf3 52.Rf5+ Kg3 53.a4 e3 54.Kf1 e2+ 55.Ke1 Kxh3 56.g5 Kg4 57.Rf2 h3 58.g6 Rb6 59.Kxe2 Rxg6 1/2

I still have not found a way for Black to convert. If you want, we can take this offline and maybe you can even try to convert it yourself against your favorite engine. I have been through several dozen different possibilities now, and they all eventually allow White to hold.

jm

[PauloSoare]

I think Terry is rigth.

After 51. g4, try 51... e3 52. a4(or g5) Rd2

Paulo Soares

[Terry McCracken]

Jim I don't see how White can prevent the e-pawn from Queening?

You don't have to play en passant, although you probably can and still win with Black.

The e-pawn, Black's King and Rook look to be too much for White to deal with in this position. Why waste time? Get the pawn down quickly with added protection from the Rook and support with the King right to the bottom rank.

Terry

I looked at lines where Black queens the Pawn and wins the Rook. They appear to be drawn because White will have pawns on both the a and h (or g) files. Here is one sample line if we start 51.g4 hxg3ep:

51.g4 hxg3ep 52.Kg2 e3 53.h4 Rd2 54.Re5 Kd1+ 55.Kxg3 e2 56.Kg4 Rd4+ 57.Kg5 e1=Q 58.Rxe1+ Kxe1 59.h5 1/2

Here's another line if Black plays 51...Kf3, for example:
51.g4 Kf3 52.Rf5+ Kg3 53.a4 e3 54.Kf1 e2+ 55.Ke1 Kxh3 56.g5 Kg4 57.Rf2 h3 58.g6 Rb6 59.Kxe2 Rxg6 1/2

I still have not found a way for Black to convert. If you want, we can take this offline and maybe you can even try to convert it yourself against your favorite engine. I have been through several dozen different possibilities now, and they all eventually allow White to hold.

jm

I'm going to have to look at this further, I haven't analized it and could well be wrong.

It's really something if White can actually draw?!

Best,
Terry

[JVMerlino]

52.g5 definitely loses.

But I think I finally found a win due to a nice piece of maneuvering by the Black King.

51.g4 e3 52.a4 Rd2 53.Rb5 Kd3 (not 53...Kf3, which draws to 54.Rf5+ Kg3 55.Kf1 Kxh3 56.Rf3+ Kxg4 57.Rxe3) 54.Rb3+ Ke4 55.Rb6 Rd1+ 56.Kg2 e2 57.Re6+ Kd3 58.g5 e1=Q 59.Rxe1 Rxe1 60.Kf3

And that should do it.

Sorry for the false alarm, guys. But it kept me entertained at least.

jm