Rybka 1.0 vs. Strelka

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Anil
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Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Anil »

bob wrote:The correct term is "semantically equivalent". That is a common term in discussing student assignments and plagiarism/copying. The probability of even 800 syntactically identical lines is vanishingly small, however 800 lines semantically identical is almost as small. About as likely as two authors writing two different mystery novels, and the storylines are identical, with only the character names and locations being different. It just doesn't happen. And when a couple of chapters are identical, and word-for-word, the probability of "simultaneous invention" is zero.
Taking the example of a programming assignment and its similarity to Fruit vs Strelka / Rybka:

Assuming 4 days for completion of assignment. A smart and intelligent student (Fruit) completes the assignment first (say in 1 day) and now he wants to help his 3 friends (but without allowing them to copy his work). So, he explains his understanding and his algortithm to resolve the problems encountered during completion of his own assignment. Luckily, as he is pretty smart and intelligent, he proved to be a very good teacher and explains his idea to the very last detail.

Now, his friends start working on their own assignments with the first student's algorithm as the base. Also, as they are from the same school/college and have been taught programming by the same teacher, their code is bound to be somewhat similar (as the algorithm that they work on is same). 1-2 friends may have some innate programming talent and optimize their own work.

What do we have now? Assignment by a smart student (Fruit) and so many other similar assignments which do not constitute plagiarism. Its a win-win situation for teacher and the students as the studnets have learned from this experience.
kranium
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Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by kranium »

I think Dr. Hyatt explains it perfectly here ...
bob wrote:For a multi-thousand line chess program, the probability of two different programmers writing the exact same code, or even 90% the same is close enough to zero a statistician would not quibble over the number.
I don't think that students sharing details about an algorithm (an abstract idea) can be compared with 2 programs both containing vast amounts of identical (or equivalent) source code...
Uri Blass
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Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Uri Blass »

bob wrote:The correct term is "semantically equivalent". That is a common term in discussing student assignments and plagiarism/copying. The probability of even 800 syntactically identical lines is vanishingly small, however 800 lines semantically identical is almost as small. About as likely as two authors writing two different mystery novels, and the storylines are identical, with only the character names and locations being different. It just doesn't happen. And when a couple of chapters are identical, and word-for-word, the probability of "simultaneous invention" is zero.
I think that things are dependent on the task.

If you have a bitboard program that one bitboard dictate many of the other bitboards so one bitboard that is identical may cause many other lines to be identical.

I do not talk about the case of strelka and fruit here (I did not learn all the similiarities) but talk about the general case.

Uri
Tony

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Tony »

Uri Blass wrote:
bob wrote:The correct term is "semantically equivalent". That is a common term in discussing student assignments and plagiarism/copying. The probability of even 800 syntactically identical lines is vanishingly small, however 800 lines semantically identical is almost as small. About as likely as two authors writing two different mystery novels, and the storylines are identical, with only the character names and locations being different. It just doesn't happen. And when a couple of chapters are identical, and word-for-word, the probability of "simultaneous invention" is zero.
I think that things are dependent on the task.

If you have a bitboard program that one bitboard dictate many of the other bitboards so one bitboard that is identical may cause many other lines to be identical.

I do not talk about the case of strelka and fruit here (I did not learn all the similiarities) but talk about the general case.

Uri
Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony
Guetti

Re: Rybka 1.0 vs. Strelka

Post by Guetti »

I find it funny to follow this discussion with Uri, it's like running around in circles. Or running against a wall? :)

Some mentioned the silence of Vas about this matter. But he is not the only one who is silent, I also didn't read any word about this matter from the other side. I would like to hear what Fabiens take is on this?
I know that he doesn't post here, but did anybody bring this matter to his attention by email and ask about his view?
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Rolf
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Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Rolf »

bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:You are assuming too much. For example, would you file suit against someone that was making a claim that hurt you, if you_knew_ that the claim was true? Because to file the suit, you have to make a sworn statement that the claim is false in order to seek damages. And if the claim is later proven true, you just committed perjury and are now looking at prison time rather than seeking financial redress from someone else. The sword of justice cuts both ways so caution is required.
I could cut out the other stuff because this here already shows your bias. You simply argue always from the position that Vas has done something wrong. I already wrote a message to write my astonishment how experts could be biased. If you at least would find arguments in favor of Vas, just out of principle. Or also in case you knew how something might have no legal relevance.
Has Vas responded in any way about this? How can one find points in his favor if there is nothing but a deafening silence from his side of the table???
I think he can rely on a purely psychological standpoint for the moment. When did you talk to a commercial programmer collegue during the last 50 years? Now that's going too far. You are looking upon everything like the guy with a hammer. Everything looks to him like a nail while hidden nails frighten him. A commercial programmer cannot discuss what he does, Bob, he lets his program speak. He's in chess what you are on ICC in Bullet. Simply the best!
Sorry, but that boat won't float. When I was accused of cheating several years ago, about something that happened back in 1986. I chose to not sit idly by and let the accusations reverberate around r.g.c.c... I replied factually, quoted a specific letter from David Levy which described the investigation he did and the conclusion that absolutely nothing wrong was done, and so forth. It would be easy enough to simply post "Rybka is my own unique work, I didn't borrow any code form any GPL or open-source programs, so I don't know why this kind of discussion has come up." I can think of only one reason why _I_ would not write that were the discussion about me, I'll leave discovering that reason as an exercise for the reader. I think it is obvious enough that anyone will "get it."
Well, didnt we two discuss more than once the differences between mere lynching justice without fair court trials and a justice after the Roman system? Innocent until proven guilty but NOT guilty until having defended oneself against all kind of campaign like CT&BobH allegations.

It also strikes me that you sit in a boat with people who admittedly have cheated with clones and or output but you cant leave someone innocent his innocense until he was proven guilty.

Your newest law of Friday morning is that someone is guilty until he has not asked David Levy ('Satisfying sex with robots', Dissert. Maastricht 2007!) and for all didnt declare that he has never slapped his, sorry, stolen Fruit code nor from Crafty.

Again, although you attack the actually best programmer worldwide except Alabama as already guilty because he doesnt speak you buddy with the Tiger author who was indirectly accused of having obfuscated the output of his Tiger versions 12, 13, 14. At least he never answered the decent questions of former cooperator Jeroen Noomen. But this is no problem for you. Although CT has obviously cheated his users you still support CT and attack Vas. Furthermore you buddy with someone who was caught red-handed with a clone what he denied for a long time until he confessed his guilt. So you buddy with such famous programmers but you hate to grant Vas the same innocense. Vas is already guilty for you with unknown reasons.

Please reconsider all that, Bob.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
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Graham Banks
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Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Graham Banks »

Tony wrote: Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony
Apparently Vas isn't under attack here, so why would he need defending?
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Tony Thomas

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Tony Thomas »

Graham Banks wrote:
Tony wrote: Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony
Apparently Vas isn't under attack here, so why would he need defending?
Vas isnt under attack, only the origin of his program is.
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Graham Banks
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Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Graham Banks »

Tony Thomas wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Tony wrote: Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony
Apparently Vas isn't under attack here, so why would he need defending?
Vas isnt under attack, only the origin of his program is.
That's the excuse constantly being used - yes.
His integrity and honesty are under attack through the insinuations being made.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Tony

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Tony »

Graham Banks wrote:
Tony wrote: Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony
Apparently Vas isn't under attack here, so why would he need defending?
Sorry, should have been Rybka or Movei

Tony