Rybka 1.0 vs. Strelka

[Terry McCracken]

Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony

Apparently Vas isn't under attack here, so why would he need defending?

Vas isnt under attack, only the origin of his program is.

That's the excuse constantly being used - yes.
His integrity and honesty are under attack through the insinuations being made.

Graham,

How do you propose moderation deals with this different to the way it is doing?

You were noderator last time, please inform us which posts you would have deleted out of this thread .......

Boy - that's the million dollar question!
The problem with CCC is that there's this thing called the charter which unfortunately severely inhibits this sort of discussion.

I would have thought that questioning the legality of an engine falls under the guise of a legally questionable post.

Also, by questioning the legality of an engine in such a manner, one is attacking the honesty and integrity of the engine author, so you're on the fringe with regards to the charter that prohibits personal or libellous attacks.

Unfortunately, if you enforce the charter, such discussions would therefore not be allowed. I'm not saying whether that's a good or bad thing, but that's the fact of the matter.

Hope that explains the predicament that faces the moderators in such situations.

The reason I didn't stand again was so that I no longer had to make such decisions, so I have to leave that to the current team.
Be warned though that you'll cop abuse no matter what you do, although I know that you're already aware of this.

Cheers, Graham.

PS - I think that your post on clones at the top of the page makes the position of the moderators clear.

Questionning the legality of an engine has been done several times in the recent past of CCC. How many times has it happened? 10 times? More?

I have never seen anybody standing up and saying it was against the charter.

Thanks to the discussions, a number of clones or illegal derived works have been discovered.

CCC is the place for these discussions to happen. The moderators' job is to let them happen, but under reasonable control.

// Christophe

Tres drole Christophe

What is exactly "under reasonable control"?

I was under the impression mods were trying to "reasonably control" the discussion, but I am rapidly coming to the conclusion this is not actually a moderatable discussion.

One man's "reasonable control" is another's "fascist dicatorship" and yet another's "anarchic disorder". When the petty gripes of those who feel their toes have been stepped on overspill into my private domain with threats pouring into my private email address (54 threatening and demanding and complaining emails from one person for example), I would say that moderation of the forums itself is under attack.

My opinion is that so far the discussion has remained under reasonable control except for one troll in high activity.

I'm sorry to learn that the moderators are under attack on their private emails.

It's very revealing if instead of contradicting the fact presented here some feel the need to threaten the moderators.



// Christophe

I know what's going on there Christophe, and it has nothing to do with this or any other thread about Rybka. It's a completely non related issue.
I won't reveal the details here and I'm not involved with this matter, it came to my attention via a member and the person involved is currently banned for an indeterminate amount of time.

Terry

[Rolf]

My opinion is that so far the discussion has remained under reasonable control except for one troll in high activity.

I'm sorry to learn that the moderators are under attack on their private emails.

It's very revealing if instead of contradicting the fact presented here some feel the need to threaten the moderators.

// Christophe

The problem is you dont see that it makes a difference who speaks. Some dont see you in a trustable position to lead such a campaign on certain data bases, if you know what I mean. Against Ruffian you was already there with similar stamina, Chris. No wonder that Tiger must suffer. Why not simply turning around the energy? From gallic to brain. From dark to bright? Just from the psychological troll.

[geots]

Note that this is the discussion about Free version of Rybka (Rybka 1.0)

Zach gave me a permission to edit the thread title and and insert "1.0" next to the engine name wherever he mentioned the engine, just to avoid confusion.

I agree with ChrisW that whenever you mention Rybka, It'd help if you include the version number along with it.

I am not personally convinced that it matters. What is the probability that Rybka 3 is vastly different from Rybka2, and R2 vastly different from V1? Most do not do _complete_ rewrites, which means much GPL code, if it was present in R1 will also be present in R3. So this realistically applies to all versions, if it applies to any.

"if it applies to any"......... Extremely clever way you phrase that, when one considers that anyone with one eye and half a brain already knows your true feelings about this whole issue.

[Terry McCracken]

There is no way that these discussions won't be offensive in some way, because in the clone thread, the underlying premise is that someone has copied something that should not be copied. But perhaps a legal opinion might be informative here. A lawyer friend of mine had called me about something and I chatted a few minutes about the ongoing discussions. And he pointed out that _somewhere_ such accusations have to be made. I asked "OK, if they come out in a courtroom, what happens, particularly if they are proven false?" He said "that is privileged discussion and you can't be sued for something you say under oath in court. You can be prosecuted if it is proven that you perjured yourself, but that is all." And in thinking about that, that should be the way this is conducted. If accusations can not be made, they can not be discussed, proven or disproven, and the situation does not get improved as a result.

And Bob, just this to my many others: there is no such thing called friendship and respect in this scene, no? And Vas has gone commercial and that is what happens but what you can not estimate. True? And did you also ask your law expert what happens in court if a campaign like man hunt could be proven? Is that also allowed in the Law in the USA? In such a public forum? Where only writing affords registration??? Are there no internet laws in the States? And man hunt in the style of virtual witch hunt is tolerated? Not to speak of business damages... Why not seeking a sort of peace? But ok with your team that couldnt be the goal. ..

What you wrote above in boald letters from my side, means that Zach and others are actively commiting witch-hunt nothing else. Because this has absolutely no relevance when he said but I will continue to ask as long as I get answers. Only he wont get some. So this is a fine forum for Zach. For how long this will bew supported? Forever? <lol>

Rolf knock it off! There isn't a witch hunt going on here or some sort of campaign against Vasik!

There never was and there never will be! You apparently don't understand the discussion and are mudding the waters with your false accusations, distortions and lack of knowledge!

I and many/most/all others don't want to hurt Vasik or even hurt his product, we just want to know how Rybka Evolved and it's obvious where it's origins began, in fact I'm suprised that you and many others hadn't a clue!

All the data is there for everyone to read, if they can't understand it then it isn't Christophe's, Zack's, Bob's, mine or anyone else's fault!

Personally, regardless how Rybka Evolved, I still think it's a great program and it's Evolution should continue.

Now Please Cool your Jets.

One of the best messages you ever made. Unfortunately I would see the hunt continue although someone like you sees the end of it. Here you are in agreement with Bob who also sees it this way. But we cant control our little hunters and they will certainly reveil as much code as possible inspite of writing own stuff. Of course they can forget about any support in the community after such lack of respect and campaign. I take your message as a good motif to have confidence that now the evil stops and people can live without getting mud wrestling messages from CCC.

Bob was so friendly and answered some of my lay questions and that made my day. There will be no courttrial. Vas will flourish and improve. He's not a criminal. What I dont get why the mods have tolerated the hunt. Because it is a hunt when nothing positive came out either for Vas nor the little hunters or their "captn".

As a psychologist I miss the realistic motivation of this all. It's a hunt but without real goals. It's nourished from a wild somewhat aggressive gut leaden mentality that has no eyes for aspects in life like love, peace and respect.

I am convinced that Vas is a terrific programmer otherwise he wouldnt stand where he is right now. To even think of that he came only there by cheating and stealing is incredibly stupid. He took something he understood better than the many others who also could read the Fruit code.

For admiring Bob it doesnt take much, because of the monumental height but I had prefered we would discuss here in CCC that we have an extraordinary talent in Vas and how others could cope with that. This would be a sane approach but what was done here is making your brains empty and it poisons your hearts. But I can foresee that someone like Vas, a genius, doesnt even know how others could enjoy smelling their gall. And what has gall in common with your brain, folks? I would so much like to send you some bits of my peace when this gallic campaign will have stopped. Somehow I must admit that you wont trust me. So?

The point is people have the right to investigate the origins of Rybka 1.0 beta32 without being accussed of going on a witch hunt or organizing some sort of campaign against Vas or his program.

That isn't what is going on here yet you insist that it is.

Yes, some programmers feel what Vas did is/was unethical, but their not trying to harm the man or his product/sales.

Just allow Christophe, Zach and other programmers to say their piece and show their proof without accusations by you.

Understand?

[Rolf]

Note that this is the discussion about Free version of Rybka (Rybka 1.0)

Zach gave me a permission to edit the thread title and and insert "1.0" next to the engine name wherever he mentioned the engine, just to avoid confusion.

I agree with ChrisW that whenever you mention Rybka, It'd help if you include the version number along with it.

I am not personally convinced that it matters. What is the probability that Rybka 3 is vastly different from Rybka2, and R2 vastly different from V1? Most do not do _complete_ rewrites, which means much GPL code, if it was present in R1 will also be present in R3. So this realistically applies to all versions, if it applies to any.

"if it applies to any"......... Extremely clever way you phrase that, when one considers that anyone with one eye and half a brain already knows your true feelings about this whole issue.

It's true that Bob isnt happy about the story if someone takes code from such sources. That is Bob's credo. But you must not call me a debile without a complete brain!

[tiger]

Note that this is the discussion about Free version of Rybka (Rybka 1.0)

Zach gave me a permission to edit the thread title and and insert "1.0" next to the engine name wherever he mentioned the engine, just to avoid confusion.

I agree with ChrisW that whenever you mention Rybka, It'd help if you include the version number along with it.

I am not personally convinced that it matters. What is the probability that Rybka 3 is vastly different from Rybka2, and R2 vastly different from V1? Most do not do _complete_ rewrites, which means much GPL code, if it was present in R1 will also be present in R3. So this realistically applies to all versions, if it applies to any.

"if it applies to any"......... Extremely clever way you phrase that, when one considers that anyone with one eye and half a brain already knows your true feelings about this whole issue.

The charter, George, the charter.



// Christophe

[Terry McCracken]

Note that this is the discussion about Free version of Rybka (Rybka 1.0)

Zach gave me a permission to edit the thread title and and insert "1.0" next to the engine name wherever he mentioned the engine, just to avoid confusion.

I agree with ChrisW that whenever you mention Rybka, It'd help if you include the version number along with it.

I am not personally convinced that it matters. What is the probability that Rybka 3 is vastly different from Rybka2, and R2 vastly different from V1? Most do not do _complete_ rewrites, which means much GPL code, if it was present in R1 will also be present in R3. So this realistically applies to all versions, if it applies to any.

"if it applies to any"......... Extremely clever way you phrase that, when one considers that anyone with one eye and half a brain already knows your true feelings about this whole issue.

Bob has the right to express his professional opinion in this matter. Whether you agree or not.

[chrisw]

Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony

Apparently Vas isn't under attack here, so why would he need defending?

Vas isnt under attack, only the origin of his program is.

That's the excuse constantly being used - yes.
His integrity and honesty are under attack through the insinuations being made.

Graham,

How do you propose moderation deals with this different to the way it is doing?

You were noderator last time, please inform us which posts you would have deleted out of this thread .......

Boy - that's the million dollar question!
The problem with CCC is that there's this thing called the charter which unfortunately severely inhibits this sort of discussion.

I would have thought that questioning the legality of an engine falls under the guise of a legally questionable post.

Also, by questioning the legality of an engine in such a manner, one is attacking the honesty and integrity of the engine author, so you're on the fringe with regards to the charter that prohibits personal or libellous attacks.

Unfortunately, if you enforce the charter, such discussions would therefore not be allowed. I'm not saying whether that's a good or bad thing, but that's the fact of the matter.

Hope that explains the predicament that faces the moderators in such situations.

The reason I didn't stand again was so that I no longer had to make such decisions, so I have to leave that to the current team.
Be warned though that you'll cop abuse no matter what you do, although I know that you're already aware of this.

Cheers, Graham.

PS - I think that your post on clones at the top of the page makes the position of the moderators clear.

Questionning the legality of an engine has been done several times in the recent past of CCC. How many times has it happened? 10 times? More?

I have never seen anybody standing up and saying it was against the charter.

Thanks to the discussions, a number of clones or illegal derived works have been discovered.

CCC is the place for these discussions to happen. The moderators' job is to let them happen, but under reasonable control.

// Christophe

Tres drole Christophe

What is exactly "under reasonable control"?

I was under the impression mods were trying to "reasonably control" the discussion, but I am rapidly coming to the conclusion this is not actually a moderatable discussion.

One man's "reasonable control" is another's "fascist dicatorship" and yet another's "anarchic disorder". When the petty gripes of those who feel their toes have been stepped on overspill into my private domain with threats pouring into my private email address (54 threatening and demanding and complaining emails from one person for example), I would say that moderation of the forums itself is under attack.

My opinion is that so far the discussion has remained under reasonable control except for one troll in high activity.

I'm sorry to learn that the moderators are under attack on their private emails.

It's very revealing if instead of contradicting the fact presented here some feel the need to threaten the moderators.



// Christophe

The spamming and threats to moderators relate to the other clone thread. It's not from anyone participating here.

[Terry McCracken]

My opinion is that so far the discussion has remained under reasonable control except for one troll in high activity.

I'm sorry to learn that the moderators are under attack on their private emails.

It's very revealing if instead of contradicting the fact presented here some feel the need to threaten the moderators.

// Christophe

The problem is you dont see that it makes a difference who speaks. Some dont see you in a trustable position to lead such a campaign on certain data bases, if you know what I mean. Against Ruffian you was already there with similar stamina, Chris. No wonder that Tiger must suffer. Why not simply turning around the energy? From gallic to brain. From dark to bright? Just from the psychological troll.

I tried to report this post but I see it's already been repoted.

Rolf you can't go around and character assassinate Christophe like this no matter what you believe or think of him or what's being discussed.

Please Stop this Action Now!

[bob]

There is no way that these discussions won't be offensive in some way, because in the clone thread, the underlying premise is that someone has copied something that should not be copied. But perhaps a legal opinion might be informative here. A lawyer friend of mine had called me about something and I chatted a few minutes about the ongoing discussions. And he pointed out that _somewhere_ such accusations have to be made. I asked "OK, if they come out in a courtroom, what happens, particularly if they are proven false?" He said "that is privileged discussion and you can't be sued for something you say under oath in court. You can be prosecuted if it is proven that you perjured yourself, but that is all." And in thinking about that, that should be the way this is conducted. If accusations can not be made, they can not be discussed, proven or disproven, and the situation does not get improved as a result.

And Bob, just this to my many others: there is no such thing called friendship and respect in this scene, no? And Vas has gone commercial and that is what happens but what you can not estimate. True? And did you also ask your law expert what happens in court if a campaign like man hunt could be proven? Is that also allowed in the Law in the USA? In such a public forum? Where only writing affords registration??? Are there no internet laws in the States? And man hunt in the style of virtual witch hunt is tolerated? Not to speak of business damages... Why not seeking a sort of peace? But ok with your team that couldnt be the goal. ..

What you wrote above in boald letters from my side, means that Zach and others are actively commiting witch-hunt nothing else. Because this has absolutely no relevance when he said but I will continue to ask as long as I get answers. Only he wont get some. So this is a fine forum for Zach. For how long this will bew supported? Forever? <lol>

I do not follow your line of reasoning. What you converted to bold face font is a simple statement that has nothing to do with anybody in particular...

I had understood that you wouldnt see this in a court. That has two consequences. Only in court one could make real accusations but here out of court you can go on forever without reasonable effects. I didnt think it was addressed to someone but it was sort of credo from you after the long and extended debate. Could we agree on that somehow?

The only legal problem I see looming is for me, because one day I am going to come to your house and kill all those damned monkeys you have typing over there.

I have made no accusations. I have had two consistent comments that I have made multiple times:

(1) one would choose to obfuscate nodes, depth and PV if one wanted to attempt to hide/conceal internal details of how the search works.

(2) the source code snippets posted here provide a direct link between fruit and strelka/rybka, when examined closely. I've not done the data / evidence gathering, I simply commented on what was being shown.

So there is no "credo" I follow, other than I would personally like to see the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth at some point in time. One can be convicted without ever taking the witness stand, if the evidence piles up until it becomes overwhelming. We are not there yet, but it is piling up with no contest from anyone at all.