Twisted Logic: Pros and Cons

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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BubbaTough
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:18 am

Re: Twisted Logic: Pros and Cons

Post by BubbaTough »

Simply run Rybka as a analysis sparring partner while going through the winning or losing games.
Sounds good. Keep in mind I (and perhaps others) came to you because of your own chess knowledge. Using Rybka to help keep you alert to tactics or to alert you to positional issues you may have glossed over is great, but I am interested in YOUR opinion of things, not Rybka's. I have no interest in trying to remold my eval or time management to be more like Rybka, but I don't mind molding them a bit to be more like Swaminthan. Right now it is probably a bit too much like Sam :(.

-Sam
swami
Posts: 6662
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: Twisted Logic: Pros and Cons

Post by swami »

BubbaTough wrote:
Simply run Rybka as a analysis sparring partner while going through the winning or losing games.
Sounds good. Keep in mind I (and perhaps others) came to you because of your own chess knowledge. Using Rybka to help keep you alert to tactics or to alert you to positional issues you may have glossed over is great, but I am interested in YOUR opinion of things, not Rybka's. I have no interest in trying to remold my eval or time management to be more like Rybka, but I don't mind molding them a bit to be more like Swaminthan. Right now it is probably a bit too much like Sam :(.

-Sam
Oh, That's it. Yep, I will try to play to as many games as possible with the Learninglemming. Perhaps one idea is to play as many games as possible and win atleast some games as human. Then maybe I will start finding weakness from there. I will give some opinion on strategy and positional play, computers are obviously stronger in tactics so I couldn't do much better here. So It would make sense to trust strongest tactical engines such as Bright, Rybka etc. If you want me to evaluate the positional play, then I could. I don't know how anyone could make the engine play like human in mind. Is there really such tricks? :)

Also having ratings close to being a FM or IM is really simple, one has to memorise a lot of positional chess patterns, with few really good combinations. For this engine, perhaps I will stop using sparring partner, and rather try to give advice on my own so the engine could adapt to human style.
swami
Posts: 6662
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: Twisted Logic: Pros and Cons

Post by swami »

Code: Select all

[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "WELCOME-D2B6707"]
[Date "2008.09.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Swami"]
[Black "LearningLemming0.30x32"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "2200"]
[Time "23:22:29"]
[WhiteElo "2400"]
[TimeControl "300+1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "149"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. d4 e6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bf4 Bd6 4. Qd2 Nf6 {(Ng8f6 e2e3 Bd6xf4 e3xf4 00 Bf1e2
Nf6e4 Nc3xe4 d5xe4 c2c3 Bc8d7 a2a3) -0.02/14 6} 5. f3 Nc6 {(Nb8c6 000 00
Ng1h3 Rf8e8 Bf4xd6 Qd8xd6 e2e3 a7a6 Nh3f4 g7g5 Nf4d3 e6e5 e3e4) +0.05/15
16} 6. O-O-O Bxf4 {(Bd6xf4 Qd2xf4 Qd8d6 Ng1h3 a7a6 e2e4 d5xe4 Nc3xe4
Qd6xf4+ Nh3xf4 Nf6xe4 f3xe4 Ke8e7 Bf1e2 Bc8d7 e4e5 Nc6b4 c2c3 Nb4d5)
+0.03/15 16} 7. Qxf4 a6 {(a7a6 e2e4 b7b5 e4e5 Nf6d7 Ng1h3 00 Qf4g3 f7f6
Nh3f4 Qd8e7 e5xf6 Qe7xf6) 0.00/15 12} 8. g4 b5 {(b7b5 e2e4 00 g4g5 Nf6h5
Qf4h4 g7g6 Ng1h3 Rf8e8 Rd1d2 Qd8d6 a2a3 Bc8b7 f3f4) -0.02/14 7} 9. h4 Qe7
{(Qd8e7 e2e4 b5b4 Nc3a4 d5xe4 g4g5) +0.02/15 10} 10. h5 h6 {(h7h6 e2e3 b5b4
Nc3a4 e6e5 d4xe5 Nc6xe5 Kc1b1 00 Rh1h2 Bc8d7 Na4c5 Qe7xc5 Qf4xe5 Rf8e8
Qe5d4) +0.05/16 6} 11. e3 b4 {(b5b4 Nc3e2 Qe7d6 Ng1h3 a6a5 Qf4g3 Qd6xg3
Ne2xg3 Ke8e7 Bf1b5 Bc8d7 Rh1h2 Nc6a7) +0.05/16 18} 12. Na4 e5 {(e6e5 d4xe5
Nc6xe5 Kc1b1 Qe7d6 c2c3 b4xc3 Na4xc3 c7c5 Qf4g3 Bc8b7 Ng1e2 00) -0.01/16 6}
13. Qg3 O-O {(00 Kc1b1 e5xd4 e3xd4 Rf8e8 Ng1e2 a6a5 Ne2f4 Qe7e3 Bf1b5 Nf6e4
Nf4xd5 Ne4xg3 Nd5xe3) 0.00/14 4} 14. g5 hxg5 {(h6xg5 Qg3xg5 e5xd4 e3xd4
Rf8e8 h5h6 Qe7e3+ Qg5xe3 Re8xe3 h6xg7 Kg8xg7 Na4c5 Nf6d7 Rh1h2 Nd7xc5 d4xc5
Bc8e6 f3f4 Re3g3 Ng1e2) +0.03/17 6} 15. h6 exd4 {(e5xd4 h6xg7 Qe7xe3+ Kc1b1
Kg8xg7 Qg3h2 g5g4 f3f4 Nf6g8 Qh2h8+ Kg7g6 Qh8h5+ Kg6f6 Qh5xd5 Bc8b7 Qd5g5+)
+0.03/15 9} 16. hxg7 Qxe3+ {(Qe7xe3+ Kc1b1 Kg8xg7 Qg3h2 Nf6g8 Qh2h8+ Kg7g6
Bf1d3+ f7f5 Qh8h7+ Kg6f6 Qh7xc7) -0.26/16 11} 17. Kb1 Kxg7 {(Kg8xg7 Qg3h2
Nf6g8 Qh2h8+ Kg7g6 Bf1d3+ f7f5) -0.94/17 13} 18. Qh2 Ng8 19. Bd3 Rd8
{(Rf8d8 Qh2xc7 Ng8e7 Na4b6 Ra8a7 Rh1h7+ Kg7g8 Qc7h2 Qe3e5 Nb6xc8 Rd8xc8
Qh2h6 Rc8a8) +0.49/16 14} 20. Qxc7 Nge7 {(Ng8e7 Na4b6 Ra8a7 Rh1h7+ Kg7f6
Qc7h2 Bc8e6 Qh2h6+) 0.00/16 8} 21. Rh7+ Kg8 {(Kg7g8 Na4b6 Ra8a7 Qc7h2 Qe3e5
Nb6xc8 Ne7xc8) -0.30/15 6} 22. Qh2 Qe5 {(Qe3e5 Qh2h5 Qe5f6 Na4b6) -0.49/15
7} 23. f4 gxf4 {(g5xf4 Ng1f3 Qe5f6 Rd1g1+ Ne7g6 Qh2h6 Nc6e7 Rh7xf7)
-1.70/15 7} 24. Nf3 Qf6 {(Qe5f6 Rd1g1+ Ne7g6 Qh2h6) -2.20/15 5} 25. Rg1+
Ng6 26. Qh6 Ne7 {(Nc6e7 Nf3e5 Bc8f5) -4.66/15 11} 27. Ne5 Bf5 {(Bc8f5
Rh7xf7 Qf6xf7 Ne5xf7 Bf5xd3 Nf7xd8 Ra8xd8 c2xd3) -4.68/15 9} 28. Rxf7 Qxf7
{(Qf6xf7 Ne5xf7 Bf5xd3 Nf7g5 Bd3xc2+ Kb1xc2 b4b3+ Kc2xb3 Rd8b8+ Kb3a3)
-5.26/15 5} 29. Nxf7 Bxd3 30. Nxd8 Rxd8 {(Ra8xd8 Na4c5 Bd3f5 Nc5e6 Bf5xe6
Rg1xg6+ Ne7xg6) -5.70/17 10} 31. cxd3 Kf7 {(Kg8f7 Qh6h7+ Kf7f6 Na4c5 a6a5
Rg1e1) -5.30/16 2} 32. Nc5 a5 {(a6a5 Qh6h3 Rd8d6 Qh3h7+ Kf7e8 Rg1e1 f4f3
Qh7g8+ Ng6f8 Re1xe7+ Ke8xe7 Qg8g7+) -5.97/15 7} 33. Nb7 Ra8 {(Rd8a8 Nb7d6+
Kf7f6 Qh6g5+ Kf6e6 Nd6b5 Ke6f7 Nb5xd4 Ra8a6 Nd4f5 Ra6c6 Nf5xe7 Ng6xe7
Qg5xf4+ Rc6f6 Qf4e5) -5.97/14 3} 34. Nd6+ Kf6 {(Kf7f6 Qh6g5+ Kf6e6 Nd6b5
Ke6f7 Nb5xd4 Ra8f8 Nd4f5 f4f3 Nf5xe7) -6.50/15 2} 35. Qg5+ Ke6 {(Kf6e6
Nd6f5 Ne7xf5 Qg5xg6+) -6.90/15 3} 36. Nb5 Kf7 {(Ke6f7 Nb5xd4 f4f3) -7.08/14
4} 37. Nc7 Rd8 {(Ra8d8 Rg1h1 Kf7g8 Nc7e6 Rd8f8 Ne6xf8 Kg8xf8 Qg5f6+)
-7.94/16 4} 38. Rh1 Kg8 {(Kf7g8 Nc7e6 Rd8f8 Ne6xf8 Kg8xf8 Qg5f6+) -8.34/15
1} 39. Qf6 Rf8 {(Rd8f8 Qf6e6+ Kg8g7) -8.20/14 3} 40. Qe6+ Kg7 {(Kg8g7 Rh1g1
Rf8f7 Qe6e5+ Kg7g8 Nc7e6) -9.40/16 4} 41. Nxd5 Nxd5 {(Ne7xd5 Qe6xd5 f4f3
Qd5xd4+ Rf8f6 Rh1h3 Ng6f4 Rh3xf3) -9.39/15 4} 42. Qxd5 Rf7 {(Rf8f7 Qd5xd4+
Kg7g8 Rh1h6 Rf7g7 Qd4d5+ Kg8f8 Qd5xa5 Ng6e7 Qa5xb4 Rg7g1+ Kb1c2 Kf8g7
Qb4xf4 Ne7g6) -11.02/12 3} 43. Rg1 f3 {(f4f3 Qd5xd4+ Rf7f6 Rg1f1 Kg7f7
Qd4a7+ Ng6e7) -9.01/13 2} 44. Qxd4+ Rf6 {(Rf7f6 Rg1c1 Kg7f7 Rc1c7+ Ng6e7
Qd4d5+ Rf6e6 Qd5f5+ Re6f6 Qf5h7+) -9.41/13 1 Black resigns} 45. Qd7+ Rf7
{(Rf6f7 Qd7e6 Rf7f6 Qe6e7+ Rf6f7 Qe7e6) -8.76/14 2} 46. Qg4 Rf6 {(Rf7f6
Rg1f1 Rf6f4 Qg4d7+ Kg7h6 Rf1h1+ Rf4h4 Rh1xh4+ Ng6xh4 Qd7g4) -8.80/14 2} 47.
Rf1 Rf4 {(Rf6f4 Qg4d7+ Rf4f7 Qd7d5 Rf7f4 Qd5xa5 Kg7f6 Qa5b6+ Kf6f5 Qb6c5+
Kf5f6 Qc5c6+ Kf6g7 Rf1xf3 Ng6e7 Qc6b7 Rf4xf3 Qb7xf3) -9.23/14 4} 48. Qg5 a4
{(a5a4 Rf1c1 f3f2 Rc1c7+ Rf4f7 Rc7xf7+ Kg7xf7 Qg5f5+ Kf7e7 Qf5xf2 b4b3
Qf2a7+ Ke7f6 Qa7a6+ Kf6g7 a2a3) -9.58/13 2} 49. Qg3 b3 {(b4b3 Rf1xf3 Rf4h4)
-9.28/14 2} 50. Rxf3 Rh4 {(Rf4h4 Qg3c7+ Kg7h6 Qc7c1+ Kh6h7 Rf3g3 Rh4h6
Qc1c7+ Kh7g8 a2xb3 a4xb3 Qc7c8+ Kg8g7 Qc8b7+ Kg7h8 Qb7xb3 Rh6h1+ Kb1a2
Ng6e7 d3d4) -9.60/14 3} 51. axb3 axb3 {(a4xb3 Qg3c7+ Kg7h6 Qc7c1+ Kh6g7
Rf3g3 Rh4h5) -9.60/14 1 Black resigns} 52. Kc1 Rh5 {(Rh4h5 d3d4 Rh5b5
Qg3c7+ Kg7h6 Rf3h3+ Rb5h5 Rh3xh5+ Kh6xh5 d4d5) -9.56/12 1 Black resigns}
53. Kd2 Kh6 {(Kg7h6 Rf3f2) -10.11/13 3 Black resigns} 54. Rf6 Rg5 {(Rh5g5
Qg3e3 Kh6h5 Qe3h3+ Ng6h4 Rf6f7 Rg5c5 Rf7h7+ Kh5g6 Rh7xh4 Rc5c2+ Kd2e3
Rc2xb2 Qh3e6+) -12.40/13 0 Black resigns} 55. Qd6 Rg2+ {(Rg5g2+ Kd2c3 Kh6g7
Kc3xb3 Kg7h6 Rf6xg6+ Rg2xg6 Qd6xg6+ Kh6xg6 Kb3c4 Kg6f7 Kc4c5 Kf7e6 Kc5c6
Ke6f6 b2b4) -10.56/13 1 Black resigns} 56. Kc3 Kh5 {(Kh6h5 Kc3xb3 Rg2e2
Rf6xg6 Kh5h4 Qd6f6+ Kh4h5 Rg6h6+) -14.36/11 1 Black resigns} 57. Rxg6 Rxg6
{(Rg2xg6 Qd6xg6+ Kh5xg6 Kc3xb3 Kg6f7 Kb3b4 Kf7e8 Kb4a5 Ke8d7 Ka5a6 Kd7c8
Ka6a7 Kc8d7 b2b4) -8.83/10 0} 58. Qxg6+ Kxg6 {(Kh5xg6 Kc3xb3 Kg6f7 Kb3c4
Kf7f6 d3d4 Kf6f5 b2b4 Kf5f6 Kc4c5 Kf6f7 b4b5 Kf7f6 b5b6 Kf6e6 d4d5+ Ke6d7
d5d6 Kd7c8 Kc5c6 Kc8b8 b6b7 Kb8a7 d6d7) -21.60/18 2} 59. Kxb3 Kf7 60. Kc4
Kf6 {(Kf7f6 d3d4 Kf6f5 b2b4 Kf5f6 d4d5 Kf6e7 Kc4c5 Ke7d8 b4b5 Kd8c8 b5b6)
-42.64/18 4} 61. b4 Ke5 {(Kf6e5 d3d4+ Ke5f4 d4d5 Kf4e5 Kc4c5 Ke5f5 b4b5
Kf5e4 b5b6 Ke4f5 d5d6 Kf5e6 b6b7 Ke6f7 b7b8Q) -42.64/17 1} 62. Kc5 Kf4
{(Ke5f4 d3d4 Kf4e3 d4d5 Ke3f3 b4b5 Kf3e4 b5b6 Ke4f5 d5d6 Kf5e6 b6b7 Ke6f7
b7b8Q Kf7g6 Qb8g8+ Kg6f5 d6d7 Kf5f4 d7d8Q Kf4f5 Qd8d5+) -43.03/17 1} 63. d4
Ke4 {(Kf4e4 b4b5 Ke4f5 b5b6 Kf5g6 d4d5 Kg6f6 d5d6 Kf6e6 b6b7 Ke6f7 b7b8Q
Kf7e6 Qb8g8+ Ke6f5 d6d7 Kf5e4 d7d8Q Ke4e5 Qd8d4+ Ke5f5 Qg8g4+) -43.03/15 1}
64. d5 Ke3 {(Ke4e3 b4b5 Ke3d3 b5b6 Kd3d2 d5d6 Kd2e1 b6b7 Ke1f1 b7b8Q Kf1e2
d6d7 Ke2f3 d7d8Q Kf3g4 Qd8d5 Kg4h3 Qd5h5+ Kh3g2 Qb8h2+ Kg2f1 Qh5d1+)
-43.43/15 2 Black resigns} 65. d6 Kf4 {(Ke3f4 b4b5 Kf4e5 d6d7 Ke5e6 d7d8Q
Ke6f7 b5b6 Kf7g7 b6b7 Kg7h6 b7b8Q Kh6h5 Qd8d5+ Kh5h4 Qd5e4+ Kh4g5 Qb8f4+)
-43.03/11 1 Black resigns} 66. d7 Ke5 {(Kf4e5 b4b5 Ke5e6 d7d8Q Ke6f7 b5b6
Kf7g7 b6b7 Kg7h6 b7b8Q Kh6h5 Qd8d5+ Kh5h4 Qd5e4+ Kh4g5 Qb8f4+) -43.03/10 1
Black resigns} 67. d8=Q Kf4 {(Ke5f4 Qd8f6+ Kf4e3 b4b5 Ke3e2 Qf6f3+ Ke2e1
Qf3e2+ Ke1xe2 b5b6 Ke2e1 b6b7 Ke1f1 b7b8Q Kf1g2 Qb8b2+ Kg2h3) -33.57/7 1
Black resigns} 68. b5 Kf3 {(Kf4f3 b5b6 Kf3e4 b6b7 Ke4e3 b7b8Q Ke3e2 Qd8h4
Ke2f3 Qb8f4+ Kf3e2 Qf4d4 Ke2f3 Qh4g4+) -M6/12 2 Black resigns} 69. b6 Kg4
{(Kf3g4 b6b7 Kg4h3 Qd8d7+ Kh3g2 Qd7d2+ Kg2h3 Kc5b4 Kh3h4) -M6/12 1 Black
resigns} 70. b7 Kh3 71. b8=Q Kg4 {(Kh3g4 Qd8d5 Kg4h4 Qb8e5 Kh4h3 Qd5f3+
Kh3h4 Qf3g3+) -M3/9 0} 72. Qe5 Kf3 73. Qf8+ Kg2 74. Qeg7+ Kh3 75. Qfh8+
{Mate} 1-0

5....Nc6?

Really unnecessary, wrong way of development. Should play c5 sooner, Knigth immediately blocks the way for c5.

13...0-0? dangerous to castle in the king side, especially when whites pieces are already advanced are ready to attack at any moment.

Hint:exd4.

15. exd4?? Always try to find ways to protect the pawn cover of the king, else it will lead to open position and direct attack on the king side.

Hint: g6.

19...Rd8??

What for? there are two pawns on the d file, blacks Rook on d8 can do nothing with the file closed.

Hint:Re8, keep it in position where there is open file.
BubbaTough
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:18 am

Re: Twisted Logic: Pros and Cons

Post by BubbaTough »

Thanks! Very helpful. If you email me pgn versions of instructive games like this it would save me a bit of work (no need to send me this one I have typed in the interesting parts)...but no reason not to post also if anyone else interested.
I don't know how anyone could make the engine play like human in mind. Is there really such tricks?
Perhaps not human, but maybe more human :). I am not currently trying to replicate human play exactly (though that may be a project later) but I do think humans have a lot more interesting chess knowledge to mine than other chess programs.

Comments/Questions on feedback (if you find it annoying I would be happy to silently accept advice. If others find it annoying I would be happy to do this via email):

5...Nc6 looks ugly. I will put this on the to do list. I have fixed this problem many times, but each time I fix it the program does worse in my tests :(.

13...O-O. King maybe belongs on kingside anyway though right? After 13...exd4 14 exd4 O-O and maybe black is OK? Not sure there is a better place for the king.

15...g6. This is a big one. Its on the list. I have some ideas how to fix this.

19...Re8. Yeah, Rd8 was odd. It will be interesting to see if you find LL has problems with open files generally, or if this move was an anomaly.
Edsel Apostol
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:53 am
Full name: Edsel Apostol

Re: Twisted Logic: Pros and Cons

Post by Edsel Apostol »

Thanks very much Swami!

I've been busy lately with relocating to a new place and adjusting myself to a new job. I have not visited this forum for four days. I missed the cloning threads. :D

By the way, I will try to read this thoroughly and will be back with questions/clarifications on the things I couldn't or failed to understand. This is a big help.
swami
Posts: 6662
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 am

Re: Twisted Logic: Pros and Cons

Post by swami »

Well, I'd create a new thread for Lemming games, I prefer doing it this way so I could get the credibility as someone like Larry Kauffman amongst non commercial engine authors. :wink:

I don't think anyone will have a problem with a single thread full of stuffs about lemming, as long as I don't borrow anti-computer style like Pablo and post them. :)

In case, If you would prefer this via email, I could do it. I've started playing few games, saving the games to be mailed.

No problem about asking me questions or comments on feedback, Feel free to ask me anything, I will try to answer.


Nc6: Usually happens in the beginning during the development, many engines make similar such moves. Suggest the better alternatives such as big book. If not, try to fix this out and do more tests to see if it does really worse. I don't know if fixing this would hinder the development in the later stage of the game, looks like this is likely the case.

0-0: Yes, you are right. Ofcourse, King belongs on the kingside.


g6: Yes, fixing this would really help. King side attacks generally often happen in higher level games.
This is the basic in positional chess. Support the pawn cover of the king first, then do something else. Otherwise, it messes up the pawn structure in what is considered the important location.


19...Rd8 : I have some 10 problems in beta test suite related especially on open files and diagonals. When I get back home, I will test the engine on this.