Deep Blue blunder

[TSP]

Your right Greg!

Obviously, something went wrong in the setup when I moved the King to f1.

I'll rerun the position and post later.

[PauloSoare]

Can you show the line(s) that draw after 44.Kf1? I could not find.

Paulo Soares

[TSP]

Hi Paul,

I am waiting on the 29 ply results to post the analysis. It's approaching the 16 hour mark on my Quad.

Last pv was +2.84 d=28 (8:48.36)

[TSP]

Unfortunately Aquarium restarted analysis after an annoying wait for ply 29.

Here is what I had saved earlier.


[D] R7/1r3kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 b - - 1 1


[+2.84] d=28 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qc1 7.Kf2 Qd2 8.Kg1 Qc1 9.Kh2 Qf4 10.g3 Qf2 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Rd7 e4 13.h4 Qe3 14.Rc7 Qb6 15.Bxe4 Rd8 16.Rc6 Qe3 (8:48.36)
[+2.84] d=27 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qc1 7.Kf2 Qd2 8.Kg1 Qc1 9.Kh2 Qf4 10.g3 Qf2 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Rd7 e4 13.h4 Qe3 14.Rc7 Qb6 15.Bxe4 Rd8 16.Rc6 Qe3 (5:41.26)
[+2.65] d=26 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh7 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qd3 7.Kg1 Qe3 8.Kh2 Qf4 9.g3 Qf2 10.Bg2 e4 11.Qc7 Qb6 12.d7 Qxc7 13.Rxc7 Rd8 14.Bxe4 Bd6 15.Rb7 Be5 16.Bc6 Bxc3 (3:10.18)
[+2.45] d=25 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qc1 7.Kf2 Qd2 8.Kg1 Qc1 9.Kh2 Qf4 10.g3 Qf2 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Rd7 e4 13.h4 Qe3 14.Rc7 (1:13.20)
[+2.45] d=24 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 (1:02.36)
[+2.20] d=23 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh7 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qd3 7.Kg1 Qe3 8.Kh2 Qf4 9.g3 Qf2 10.Bg2 e4 11.Qc7 Qb6 12.d7 Qxc7 13.Rxc7 Rd8 14.Bxe4 Bd6 15.Rb7 Be5 16.Bc6 Bxc3 (0:31.53)
[+1.68] d=22 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.Ke2 Qd6 6.Qe6 Qb6 7.Qxb6 Rxb6 8.Ke3 Bd6 9.Bf3 e4 10.Bxe4 Kg8 11.Bf3 Kf8 12.Kd2 Bb8 13.Rd7 Be5 14.Kc2 Ke8 15.Ra7 Kd8 16.h4 Rd6 (0:08.00)
[+1.68] d=21 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.Ke2 Qd6 6.Qe6 Qb6 7.Qxb6 Rxb6 8.Ke3 Bd6 9.Bf3 e4 10.Bxe4 Kg8 11.Bf3 Kf8 12.Kd2 Bb8 13.Rd7 Be5 14.Kc2 Ke8 15.Ra7 Kd8 16.h4 Rd6 (0:05.32)
[+1.56] d=20 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Ke2 Kh7 5.Qf7 Rd8 6.h4 Kh8 7.Qb7 Rb8 8.Qxb6 Rxb6 9.Ke3 Kg8 10.Bf3 Bd6 11.Ke4 (0:02.09)
[+1.56] d=19 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Ke2 Kh7 5.Qf7 Rd8 6.h4 Kh8 7.Qb7 Rb8 8.Qxb6 Rxb6 9.Ke3 Kg8 10.Bf3 Bd6 11.Ke4 (0:01.22)
[+1.37] d=18 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 g6 8.fxg6 f5 9.g4 fxg4 10.Bxg4 Rxg6 11.Rb7 Ra6 12.Be6 Kh8 13.Rxb5 Ra2 14.Kd1 Ra3 15.Kc2 e4 16.Rb8 (0:00.40)
[+1.37] d=17 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 g6 8.fxg6 f5 9.g4 fxg4 10.Bxg4 Rxg6 11.Rb7 Ra6 12.Be6 Kh8 13.Rxb5 Ra2 14.Kd1 Ra3 15.Kc2 e4 16.Rb8 (0:00.26)
[+1.53] d=16 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Kf2 Bd6 8.Ke3 Bf8 9.Bh5 Bd6 10.Bf7 (0:00.13)
[+1.53] d=15 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Kf2 Bd6 8.Ke3 Bf8 9.Bh5 Bd6 10.Bf7 (0:00.10)
[+1.53] d=14 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 Rb8 8.Ke3 Bd6 9.Bh5 (0:00.08)
[+1.47] d=13 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 Rb8 8.Ke3 (0:00.06)
[+1.17] d=12 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 (0:00.06)
[+1.51] d=12 1...Rb8 (0:00.02)
[+1.91] d=12 1...Rb8 (0:00.01)
[+2.11] d=12 1...Rb8 (0:00.01)

[Dirt]

Can you show the line(s) that draw after 44.Kf1? I could not find.

Paulo Soares

There is a discussion of the game here that shows the drawing line.

Incidentally, I found this by searching for ["deep blue" kasparov "44.kf1"] on Google.

[PauloSoare]

Unfortunately Aquarium restarted analysis after an annoying wait for ply 29.

Here is what I had saved earlier.


[d] R7/1r3kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 b - - 1 1


[+2.84] d=28 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qc1 7.Kf2 Qd2 8.Kg1 Qc1 9.Kh2 Qf4 10.g3 Qf2 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Rd7 e4 13.h4 Qe3 14.Rc7 Qb6 15.Bxe4 Rd8 16.Rc6 Qe3 (8:48.36)
[+2.84] d=27 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qc1 7.Kf2 Qd2 8.Kg1 Qc1 9.Kh2 Qf4 10.g3 Qf2 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Rd7 e4 13.h4 Qe3 14.Rc7 Qb6 15.Bxe4 Rd8 16.Rc6 Qe3 (5:41.26)
[+2.65] d=26 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh7 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qd3 7.Kg1 Qe3 8.Kh2 Qf4 9.g3 Qf2 10.Bg2 e4 11.Qc7 Qb6 12.d7 Qxc7 13.Rxc7 Rd8 14.Bxe4 Bd6 15.Rb7 Be5 16.Bc6 Bxc3 (3:10.18)
[+2.45] d=25 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qc1 7.Kf2 Qd2 8.Kg1 Qc1 9.Kh2 Qf4 10.g3 Qf2 11.Bg2 Qb6 12.Rd7 e4 13.h4 Qe3 14.Rc7 (1:13.20)
[+2.45] d=24 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.d6 (1:02.36)
[+2.20] d=23 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh7 5.d6 Qe3 6.Bd5 Qd3 7.Kg1 Qe3 8.Kh2 Qf4 9.g3 Qf2 10.Bg2 e4 11.Qc7 Qb6 12.d7 Qxc7 13.Rxc7 Rd8 14.Bxe4 Bd6 15.Rb7 Be5 16.Bc6 Bxc3 (0:31.53)
[+1.68] d=22 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.Ke2 Qd6 6.Qe6 Qb6 7.Qxb6 Rxb6 8.Ke3 Bd6 9.Bf3 e4 10.Bxe4 Kg8 11.Bf3 Kf8 12.Kd2 Bb8 13.Rd7 Be5 14.Kc2 Ke8 15.Ra7 Kd8 16.h4 Rd6 (0:08.00)
[+1.68] d=21 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qf7 Kh8 5.Ke2 Qd6 6.Qe6 Qb6 7.Qxb6 Rxb6 8.Ke3 Bd6 9.Bf3 e4 10.Bxe4 Kg8 11.Bf3 Kf8 12.Kd2 Bb8 13.Rd7 Be5 14.Kc2 Ke8 15.Ra7 Kd8 16.h4 Rd6 (0:05.32)
[+1.56] d=20 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Ke2 Kh7 5.Qf7 Rd8 6.h4 Kh8 7.Qb7 Rb8 8.Qxb6 Rxb6 9.Ke3 Kg8 10.Bf3 Bd6 11.Ke4 (0:02.09)
[+1.56] d=19 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Ke2 Kh7 5.Qf7 Rd8 6.h4 Kh8 7.Qb7 Rb8 8.Qxb6 Rxb6 9.Ke3 Kg8 10.Bf3 Bd6 11.Ke4 (0:01.22)
[+1.37] d=18 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 g6 8.fxg6 f5 9.g4 fxg4 10.Bxg4 Rxg6 11.Rb7 Ra6 12.Be6 Kh8 13.Rxb5 Ra2 14.Kd1 Ra3 15.Kc2 e4 16.Rb8 (0:00.40)
[+1.37] d=17 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 g6 8.fxg6 f5 9.g4 fxg4 10.Bxg4 Rxg6 11.Rb7 Ra6 12.Be6 Kh8 13.Rxb5 Ra2 14.Kd1 Ra3 15.Kc2 e4 16.Rb8 (0:00.26)
[+1.53] d=16 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Kf2 Bd6 8.Ke3 Bf8 9.Bh5 Bd6 10.Bf7 (0:00.13)
[+1.53] d=15 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Kf2 Bd6 8.Ke3 Bf8 9.Bh5 Bd6 10.Bf7 (0:00.10)
[+1.53] d=14 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 Rb8 8.Ke3 Bd6 9.Bh5 (0:00.08)
[+1.47] d=13 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 3.Ra7 Bf8 4.Qe6 Kh7 5.Qxb6 Rxb6 6.Bf3 Kg8 7.Ke2 Rb8 8.Ke3 (0:00.06)
[+1.17] d=12 1...Rb8 2.Qd7 Kg8 (0:00.06)
[+1.51] d=12 1...Rb8 (0:00.02)
[+1.91] d=12 1...Rb8 (0:00.01)
[+2.11] d=12 1...Rb8 (0:00.01)

Thanks, Terry. Interesting to see that in the begining position the evaluation is +2,84.
What engine do you use?

The position is complex and Kgburcham said that Kf1 it´s a draw. My problem is that I
spent hours analyzing the position and I could not find a draw, only wins for white.
Unhaply, I could not find the analysis of the position in the Net

Paulo Soares

[PauloSoare]

Thanks, Greg, I will see.
Paulo Soares

[PauloSoare]

The only reference that I can get about Kf1:


jyske: There is no evidence of any cheating or human intervention whatsoever.
Refusal to publish logs part publishing, ambiguous comments none of this amounts
to evidence. However I believe it is incorrect to say that top prgrams to day would
go for the 37 Be4 line beacuse all the top programs want to play 36 Qb6 (Rybka, Fritz ,
Toga Shredder) no matter how long you let then run they will not choose 37 axb5 which
stays 2nd choice. It seems that 36 Qb6 also wins. However having played
36 axb5 axb5 37 Be4 is the immediate first choice of Rybka and Fritz although Fritz 9
switches to 37 Qb6 with 37 Be4 a close 2nd choice. 37 Be4 is the very clear 1st choice
for Rybka(2.3.2a 32 bit) and remains that way. Rybka takes about 1 minute 30 secs to
prefer 4 Kh1 over 44 Kf1 at depth 17, winning easily, and this becomes a heavy favourite
and stays that way. Fritz 9 stubbornly favours 44 Kf1 slightly over 4 Kh1. However is
there not still a win after 44Kf1!? Rb8 now 45 Qd7+! (Rybka and Fritz choice Deep Blues
45 Ra6? allows a draw 45 ..Qe3)kg8 46 Ra7 Bf8 47 Qe6+ Kh7 48 Qxe6 Rxe6 49 Bf3 this ending
looks won for white although I have not finished analysing it. All the speculation about
how Deep Blue could choose this move but not that are just speculation lacking evidence.
It is the unknown balance between Deep Blues programmed chess knowledge (like Rybka) and
,brute force calculating line (like Hydra/Fritz)What we know is that Kasparov played a
,relatively passive line and if he played that agiast even a free program like Toga II 3x4b
today he would probably lose. So that Deep Blue with all its resources and specialised
hardware and GM assistance in chess programming should have got to the level of todays
standard chess software 10 years in advance is no surprise and absolutely possible.
Conclusion - there is no reason to doubt that Kasparov was beaten fair and square and that
the correct conclusion was drawn namely that chess playing software can out play any human
in tournament chess.

[ernst]

Your line is not correct as there is no 48.Qxe6 Rxe6. Do you mean 48.Qxb6 Rxb6? I think it is still draw after this line.

[TSP]

Greg,
Yes a draw with the move 45. Ra6, but Rybka may have found a win with 45. Qd7.

The forced line is:

45. Qd7 Kg8 46. Ra7 Bf8 47. Qf7 Kh8

I'm leaving for a few hours so will run this position while I'm gone.

[d] 1r3b1k/R4Qp1/1q3p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 w - - 7 5