Super GM blunder score will increase every year

[kgburcham]

Here is another Super GM 4 point blunder in the latest tournament.
As hardware and programs improve every year these blunders will just keep getting higher in value. For example this same blunder might show 10 points in 2010. Or maybe a mate eventually.
I am sure some here think that they realized how Gm have blundered since the cavemen played chess. I have not realized how often GMs blunder untill the last few years using programs. I am amazed how often a 2700 player will blunder.



Before Blunder
18/55 2:16 +0.90 27...exd4 28.Rbb1 dxe3 29.Qxe3+ Kf8 30.Qb6 Rd7 31.Rdc1 Rd8 32.Qc5+ Kg8 33.Bf3 Qd6 34.Qxa5 Rb8 35.Ra1 Rh6 36.Rd1 (314.527.826) 2307
18/55 2:46 +0.90 27...exd4 28.Rbb1 dxe3 29.Qxe3+ Kf8 30.Qb6 Rd7 31.Rdc1 Rd8 32.Qc5+ Kg8 33.Bf3 Qd6 34.Qxa5 Rb8 35.Ra1 Rh6 36.Rd1 (381.549.368) 2295
19/57 4:29 +0.90 27...exd4 28.Rbb1 dxe3 29.Qxe3+ Kf8 30.Qb6 Rd7 31.Rdc1 Rd8 32.Qc5+ Kg8 33.Bf3 Qd6 34.Qxa5 Rb8 35.Ra1 Rh6 36.Rd1 (607.892.323) 2256
best move: e5xd4 time: 4:43.969 min n/s: 2.239.408 nodes: 638.624.207

After 27...axb4
[d] 1q1r3r/1B2kpp1/5n2/4p3/1p1B3p/4PQ1P/5PP1/3R2K1 w - -

11/39 0:01 +3.19 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 (2.302.410) 1841
12/43 0:02 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (5.636.924) 1971
12/43 0:02 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (5.788.041) 1970
13/45 0:04 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (9.632.881) 2027
13/45 0:04 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (9.962.678) 2030
14/47 0:10 +3.76 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qb7 Rd8 34.Qb6+ Rd6 35.Qxb4 (22.127.360) 2148
14/47 0:10 +3.76 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qb7 Rd8 34.Qb6+ Rd6 35.Qxb4 (22.809.418) 2153
15/49 0:22 +3.90 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Rd8 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qc7+ Nd7 35.Bc6 f6 (51.171.413) 2237
15/49 0:23 +3.90 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Rd8 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qc7+ Nd7 35.Bc6 f6 (52.639.179) 2238
16/51 0:49 +4.28 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qc6+ Kf5 34.g4+ Kg5 35.f4+ exf4 36.Qb5+ Kh6 37.g5+ Kg6 38.Bf3 fxe3 39.gxf6 gxf6 40.Qxb4 (114.788.988) 2301
16/51 0:51 +4.28 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qc6+ Kf5 34.g4+ Kg5 35.f4+ exf4 36.Qb5+ Kh6 37.g5+ Kg6 38.Bf3 fxe3 39.gxf6 gxf6 40.Qxb4 (117.993.949) 2300
17/53 2:10 +4.97 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 b3 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qb7+ Kd6 35.Qxb3 Ke7 36.Qb5 Kd6 37.Bb7 Rb8 38.Qb4+ Ke6 39.Bd5+ Nxd5 40.Qxb8 g5 (303.186.495) 2317
17/53 2:13 +4.97 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 b3 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qb7+ Kd6 35.Qxb3 Ke7 36.Qb5 Kd6 37.Bb7 Rb8 38.Qb4+ Ke6 39.Bd5+ Nxd5 40.Qxb8 g5 (309.049.755) 2315
18/55 5:19 +5.62 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Qc6+ Ke7 33.Bxa8 Nd7 34.Qe4 Rxa8 35.Qxa8 g5 36.Qb7 b3 37.Qb4+ Ke8 38.Qxb3 Ke7 39.Qb4+ Ke8 (744.866.357) 2329

[Event "Grand Slam Final"]
[Site "Bilbao ESP"]
[Date "2008.09.08"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Carlsen, M."]
[Black "Aronian, L."]
[WhiteElo "2775"]
[BlackElo "2737"]
[ECO "D47"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Bd3
dxc4 7. Bxc4 b5 8. Bd3 Bb7 9. a3 b4 10. Ne4 Nxe4 11. Bxe4
bxa3 12. O-O Nf6 13. Bd3 axb2 14. Bxb2 a5 15. d5 Nxd5
16. Ne5 Nf6 17. Qa4 Bb4 18. Nxc6 Bxc6 19. Qxc6+ Ke7
20. Rfd1 Rc8 21. Qf3 Qb6 22. Bd4 Qb8 23. Ba6 Rcd8 24. Bb7
h5 25. h3 h4 26. Rab1 e5 27. Rxb4 axb4 28. Bc5+ Ke6 29. Ra1
Rd6 30. Bxd6 Kxd6 31. Qc6+ Ke7 32. Ra8 Qd6 33. Qxd6+ Kxd6
34. Rxh8 b3 35. Ba6 Nd7 36. Rxh4 Nc5 1-0

[Rolf]

Here is another Super GM 4 point blunder in the latest tournament.
As hardware and programs improve every year these blunders will just keep getting higher in value. For example this same blunder might show 10 points in 2010. Or maybe a mate eventually.
I am sure some here think that they realized how Gm have blundered since the cavemen played chess. I have not realized how often GMs blunder untill the last few years using programs. I am amazed how often a 2700 player will blunder.

Let's make a little experiment. Please express in your own words what you understand under blunder. More after you answered.

[kgburcham]

knock, knock.

[Rolf]

knock, knock.

Then without experiment. I simply doubt your header. The score wont increase for super GM. Explanation impossible because you didnt answer.

[Marc MP]

Here is another Super GM 4 point blunder in the latest tournament.
As hardware and programs improve every year these blunders will just keep getting higher in value. For example this same blunder might show 10 points in 2010. Or maybe a mate eventually.
I am sure some here think that they realized how Gm have blundered since the cavemen played chess. I have not realized how often GMs blunder untill the last few years using programs. I am amazed how often a 2700 player will blunder.



Before Blunder
18/55 2:16 +0.90 27...exd4 28.Rbb1 dxe3 29.Qxe3+ Kf8 30.Qb6 Rd7 31.Rdc1 Rd8 32.Qc5+ Kg8 33.Bf3 Qd6 34.Qxa5 Rb8 35.Ra1 Rh6 36.Rd1 (314.527.826) 2307
18/55 2:46 +0.90 27...exd4 28.Rbb1 dxe3 29.Qxe3+ Kf8 30.Qb6 Rd7 31.Rdc1 Rd8 32.Qc5+ Kg8 33.Bf3 Qd6 34.Qxa5 Rb8 35.Ra1 Rh6 36.Rd1 (381.549.368) 2295
19/57 4:29 +0.90 27...exd4 28.Rbb1 dxe3 29.Qxe3+ Kf8 30.Qb6 Rd7 31.Rdc1 Rd8 32.Qc5+ Kg8 33.Bf3 Qd6 34.Qxa5 Rb8 35.Ra1 Rh6 36.Rd1 (607.892.323) 2256
best move: e5xd4 time: 4:43.969 min n/s: 2.239.408 nodes: 638.624.207

After 27...axb4
[d] 1q1r3r/1B2kpp1/5n2/4p3/1p1B3p/4PQ1P/5PP1/3R2K1 w - -

11/39 0:01 +3.19 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 (2.302.410) 1841
12/43 0:02 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (5.636.924) 1971
12/43 0:02 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (5.788.041) 1970
13/45 0:04 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (9.632.881) 2027
13/45 0:04 +3.51 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Qc6+ Ke7 32.Ra8 Qd6 33.Rxh8 Qxc6 34.Bxc6 g5 35.Ba4 Nd5 36.Bb3 Nc3 (9.962.678) 2030
14/47 0:10 +3.76 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qb7 Rd8 34.Qb6+ Rd6 35.Qxb4 (22.127.360) 2148
14/47 0:10 +3.76 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qb7 Rd8 34.Qb6+ Rd6 35.Qxb4 (22.809.418) 2153
15/49 0:22 +3.90 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Rd8 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qc7+ Nd7 35.Bc6 f6 (51.171.413) 2237
15/49 0:23 +3.90 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Rd8 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qc7+ Nd7 35.Bc6 f6 (52.639.179) 2238
16/51 0:49 +4.28 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qc6+ Kf5 34.g4+ Kg5 35.f4+ exf4 36.Qb5+ Kh6 37.g5+ Kg6 38.Bf3 fxe3 39.gxf6 gxf6 40.Qxb4 (114.788.988) 2301
16/51 0:51 +4.28 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 Ke6 33.Qc6+ Kf5 34.g4+ Kg5 35.f4+ exf4 36.Qb5+ Kh6 37.g5+ Kg6 38.Bf3 fxe3 39.gxf6 gxf6 40.Qxb4 (117.993.949) 2300
17/53 2:10 +4.97 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 b3 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qb7+ Kd6 35.Qxb3 Ke7 36.Qb5 Kd6 37.Bb7 Rb8 38.Qb4+ Ke6 39.Bd5+ Nxd5 40.Qxb8 g5 (303.186.495) 2317
17/53 2:13 +4.97 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Bxa8 b3 33.Qc6+ Ke7 34.Qb7+ Kd6 35.Qxb3 Ke7 36.Qb5 Kd6 37.Bb7 Rb8 38.Qb4+ Ke6 39.Bd5+ Nxd5 40.Qxb8 g5 (309.049.755) 2315
18/55 5:19 +5.62 28.Bc5+ Ke6 29.Ra1 Rd6 30.Bxd6 Kxd6 31.Ra8 Qxa8 32.Qc6+ Ke7 33.Bxa8 Nd7 34.Qe4 Rxa8 35.Qxa8 g5 36.Qb7 b3 37.Qb4+ Ke8 38.Qxb3 Ke7 39.Qb4+ Ke8 (744.866.357) 2329

[Event "Grand Slam Final"]
[Site "Bilbao ESP"]
[Date "2008.09.08"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Carlsen, M."]
[Black "Aronian, L."]
[WhiteElo "2775"]
[BlackElo "2737"]
[ECO "D47"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Bd3
dxc4 7. Bxc4 b5 8. Bd3 Bb7 9. a3 b4 10. Ne4 Nxe4 11. Bxe4
bxa3 12. O-O Nf6 13. Bd3 axb2 14. Bxb2 a5 15. d5 Nxd5
16. Ne5 Nf6 17. Qa4 Bb4 18. Nxc6 Bxc6 19. Qxc6+ Ke7
20. Rfd1 Rc8 21. Qf3 Qb6 22. Bd4 Qb8 23. Ba6 Rcd8 24. Bb7
h5 25. h3 h4 26. Rab1 e5 27. Rxb4 axb4 28. Bc5+ Ke6 29. Ra1
Rd6 30. Bxd6 Kxd6 31. Qc6+ Ke7 32. Ra8 Qd6 33. Qxd6+ Kxd6
34. Rxh8 b3 35. Ba6 Nd7 36. Rxh4 Nc5 1-0

Hi Kg,

I'm thinking that your observation that top GM blunders more than before is genuine. But I have explanations for that (I think there are interesting for this forum):

1. The boring one: Time control has accerelated since the good old time from 40/2h30 with adjournment, to 90M+30s without adjournment.

2. Due to computer chess: A lot of top GM are now willing to take "king walk" (especially when steeming from opening preparation). Computers showed them how to defend.

So due to these two factors, top GM take more risks than before (Topalov comes to mind), but also analysing their play with engines will reveal more errors.

[Dann Corbit]

If nobody makes a mistake, nobody wins. If you look at the scores of strong computer programs (say -- Zappa verses Rybka) you will also see huge eval swings during won games. Did the losing program blunder? It depends on your definition of blunder. Both super-GMs and strong computer programs will occasionally make bad moves from time to time. If they did not ever make a mistake then they would win every game (or at least they would never lose).

I think we are seeing more and more "blunders" because computer programs are so much stronger now and they can search so much deeper that we can easily find combinations 18 plies deep which would not have been possible ten years ago.

So I think we are probably looking at a combination of things. Players taking more chances and much improved ability to locate the tiniest flaw.

[kgburcham]

We have all played 100s of games when one program gets it and the other does not. In these cases it is extremely rare for a program to duplicate an example such as the eval I posted above. It probably is impossible any more for todays top programs to blunder such as my original post. It is always an increase in eval from small increments per move. I remember when I was following the Deep Junior vs Shredder game and my Shredder eval jumped during the game. That is very rare and usually is not a combination during the middle game. It is usually because of a pawn or pawns in the endgame being promoted and the search was too deep.
The huge eval swings during a number of moves is not the point. That is a bad line. The original post was one move blunders.
Also note that in the eval I posted the blunder was reflected in the score at shallow depth.

Dan if you have a couple of the type of program moves I am refering to, would you post them? Not GM moves, I have plenty of those one move blunders. I am talking about a one move program blunder.

kgburcham

[Dann Corbit]

I see it all the time.
One program will think things are even and the other program sees +3 pawns.
It is not hard to find positions like these with this:
http://home.pacific.net.au/~tommyinoz/gameanalyser.html

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

I see it all the time.
One program will think things are even and the other program sees +3 pawns.
It is not hard to find positions like these with this:
http://home.pacific.net.au/~tommyinoz/gameanalyser.html

This happens particulary when the gap between the two programs is rather big in terms of strength....but there are a lot of exceptions of course....

[kgburcham]

I see it all the time.
One program will think things are even and the other program sees +3 pawns.
It is not hard to find positions like these with this:
http://home.pacific.net.au/~tommyinoz/gameanalyser.html

This happens particulary when the gap between the two programs is rather big in terms of strength....but there are a lot of exceptions of course....

Ok Doc. You did it again.
You said you really wanted me to let you be my friend, and I am trying.
I did not say BamBam vs Rybka 3. I did not say duo core vs quad core.
Of course I meant fairly equal hardware and a fairly equal program.
Like I requested from Dan. Please post a one move blunder by a top program in tournament (long) time control with decent hardware.
I posted one the other day, I will try to find it again.

kgburcham