Finally a position programs do not have a clue

[kgburcham]

In this GM position programs do not have a clue why white lost this game.
2400 player wins against 2600 player. No program after deep analysis can see why black won this game. After 26.Re1 White lost this game.
Can Rybka 3 see why Black won. Not even Deep Blue can see why White lost.


[d] 3r1r1k/p4pp1/1p3n1p/8/P1R2P2/2NB1b2/1PP4P/1K2R3 b - -

[Uri Blass]

In this GM position programs do not have a clue why white lost this game.
2400 player wins against 2600 player. No program after deep analysis can see why black won this game. After 26.Re1 White lost this game.
Can Rybka 3 see why Black won. Not even Deep Blue can see why White lost.


[d] 3r1r1k/p4pp1/1p3n1p/8/P1R2P2/2NB1b2/1PP4P/1K2R3 b - -

Maybe white simply lost on time or maybe you have not the full pgn and white blundered later.

Uri

[Rolf]

ROTFL you are correct here Nigel S lost his game because his phone cell from Nokia gave a message that it was short on oil althouh Nigel ha given his very new present a deep sleep because not allowance during a chess game. So he lost against another woman. I know that he liked to be in the top headers of the World press again.

[AdminX]

ROTFL you are correct here Nigel S lost his game because his phone cell from Nokia gave a message that it was short on oil althouh Nigel ha given his very new present a deep sleep because not allowance during a chess game. So he lost against another woman. I know that he liked to be in the top headers of the World press again.

I read about this ...

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

hehe,finaly kgburcham....finaly indeed

P.S.go to my Petrosian's positions and try to solve some....the engines are blind there like a bat in the early morning

[Uri Blass]

hehe,finaly kgburcham....finaly indeed

P.S.go to my Petrosian's positions and try to solve some....the engines are blind there like a bat in the early morning

No need for games of strong players

You can see positions when rybka does not have a clue from my OTB games(note that I also did not have a clue during the game)

My opponent was Naum Segal(fide rating 2210)
It seems that rybka cannot find 19.Nd1 of my opponent even after a long search and she suggests 19.f4 at depth 20 after few houes(with more than one cpu results may be different but it may be intersting to see how much time does rybka 1 cpu needs to see 19.Nd1 because after 19.Nd1 she can see that the score is relatively better for white even at depth 15.

Here is the game and analysis by rybka(the fact that the score goes down in every iteration suggests that rybka does not have a clue.

Note that when I played 25...Nf6 I did not see that both my rooks cannot move but I think that at that time it is too late to save the game and I did not give rybka lot of time to prove it in the analysis.

unlike rybka I know that in principal rooks that cannot move is very bad
and I simply did not pay attention to the fact that both of them cannot move in the game.

The problem of rybka seems to be different and I guess that she basically does not know that the rooks cannot move after Be6+(the only reason she evaluates the position as equal at small depths is that rybka see that white can force capture of the black knight at a5).

[Event "80'/40+40'/20+20'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.09.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "E66"]
[Annotator "so k"]
[PlyCount "77"]
[TimeControl "40/4800:20/2400:1200"]

{512MB, Rybka3.ctg, URI-AMD} 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. O-O O-O 5. c4 c5
6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d6 8. d5 Na5 9. Qd3 Qb6 10. e4 Qb4 11. Nd2 Ng4 12. a3 Qb6 13.
Qc2 f5 14. h3 Ne5 15. b3 fxe4 (15... f4 16. gxf4 Rxf4 17. b4 cxb4 18. axb4 Qxb4
19. Nb5) 16. Bxe4 Bxh3 17. Bb2 Bxf1 18. Rxf1 Rf7 (18... Nxb3 19. Nxb3 Nxc4 20.
Na4 Qa6 21. Bxg7 Kxg7 22. Naxc5 dxc5 23. Nxc5 Nxa3) ({Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :}
18... Ng4 19. Bg2 Nh6 20. Ne2 Bxb2 21. Qxb2 Nf5 22. Qc3 Qa6 23. b4 Nxc4 24.
Qxc4 Qxa3 25. bxc5 Qxc5 26. Qd3 Rac8 27. Rc1 Qa5 28. Rb1 Rc7 29. Be4 Ng7 30.
Nb3 Qa3 {-0.50/19}) 19. Nd1 ({Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 19. f4 Ng4 20. Re1 Raf8
21. Kg2 Nh6 22. Na4 Qc7 23. Bxg7 Rxg7 24. Nf3 Nf7 25. Bd3 a6 26. Nc3 Rc8 27.
Ne4 {-0.94/18}) ({Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 19. f4 Ng4 20. Re1 Qc7 21. Kg2 Qc8
22. Nd1 Bxb2 23. Nxb2 b6 24. Nf3 Rf6 25. Ng5 Qd7 26. b4 Nb7 27. Qe2 h5 28. Bc2
Nd8 29. Ba4 {-0.63/20}) 19... Ng4 ({Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 19... Ng4 20. Bxg7
Rxg7 21. Bg2 h5 22. Bh3 e6 23. f3 {-0.26/19}) 20. Bxg7 Rxg7 21. Qc3 Rc8 22. Bg2
Rc7 23. Bh3 Ne5 24. f4 Nd7 25. Kh2 Nf6 ({Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 25... h5 26.
Ne3 Nf6 27. b4 Nxc4 28. Ndxc4 Qa6 29. Be6+ Kh8 30. Ra1 Ne4 31. Qc2 Nf6 32. Na5
{0.40/16}) 26. Be6+ Kh8 (26... Kf8 {Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 27. g4 h5 28. g5
Ng4+ 29. Kg3 Nc6 30. dxc6 Qxc6 31. f5 Ne5 32. Ne3 gxf5 33. Rxf5+ Ke8 34. Nd5
Rg6 35. Rxe5 dxe5 36. Qxe5 Qd6 37. Qxd6 exd6 38. Nxc7+ Kd8 39. Bd5 Kxc7 40. Kh4
Rg7 {2.25/15}) (26... Rf7 {Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 27. g4 {3.03/15}) 27. g4 h5
({Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 27... Nc6 28. dxc6 bxc6 29. g5 Nh5 30. Ne3 Rb7 31.
Ng4 d5 32. cxd5 cxd5 33. Bxd5 Rd7 34. Bc4 Rd4 35. Ne5 e6 36. Qe3 Rc7 37. Ne4 a5
38. Re1 {1.84/17}) 28. g5 Ng4+ ({Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :} 28... Nd7 29. f5 Nc6
30. dxc6 Nf8 31. cxb7 Rxb7 {2.86/15}) 29. Kg3 Kh7 30. Rh1 Ne5 31. Qc2 Nf7 32.
Bxf7 Rxf7 33. Rxh5+ Kg7 34. Qc3+ Rf6 35. Rh2 Rc8 36. Re2 Kf7 37. gxf6 exf6 38.
Re6 Qd8 39. Ne4 *

131: New game - Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit, 80'/40+40'/20+20'
r4rk1/pp2p1bp/1q1p2p1/n1pPn3/2P1B3/PPN3P1/1BQN1P2/5RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :

18...a7-a6
-+ (-1.69) Depth: 2 00:00:00
18...a7-a6
-+ (-1.69) Depth: 3 00:00:00
18...a7-a6
-+ (-1.52) Depth: 4 00:00:00
18...Ra8-c8
-+ (-1.59) Depth: 4 00:00:00
18...Ra8-d8
-+ (-1.60) Depth: 4 00:00:00
18...Ra8-d8 19.Be4-g2
-+ (-1.54) Depth: 5 00:00:00
18...Ne5-f7 19.f2-f4
-+ (-1.60) Depth: 5 00:00:00
18...Ne5-f7 19.f2-f4 Nf7-h6
-+ (-1.60) Depth: 6 00:00:00 6kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Be4-g2 Ra8-f8
-+ (-1.62) Depth: 6 00:00:01 8kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Nc3-a4 Qb6-c7 20.Be4-g2 Ra8-b8 21.Bg2-h3
-+ (-1.57) Depth: 7 00:00:03 32kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Be4-g2 Ra8-f8 20.Nc3-e4 h7-h6
-+ (-1.55) Depth: 8 00:00:03 34kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Be4-g2 a7-a6 20.Nc3-e4 h7-h6 21.Ne4-c3
µ (-1.33) Depth: 9 00:00:10 124kN
18...Ne5-g4 19.Nc3-a4 Qb6-a6 20.Be4-f3 Ng4-e5 21.Bf3-e2
µ (-1.37) Depth: 9 00:00:12 148kN
18...Ne5-g4 19.Nc3-a4 Qb6-a6 20.Be4-f3 Bg7xb2 21.Bf3xg4 Bb2-d4 22.Qc2-d3 Kg8-h8
µ (-1.39) Depth: 10 00:00:13 164kN
18...Ne5-g4 19.Nc3-a4 Qb6-a6 20.Be4-f3 Bg7xb2 21.Bf3xg4 Bb2-d4 22.Qc2-d3 Kg8-h8
µ (-1.39) Depth: 11 00:00:16 192kN
18...Ne5-g4 19.Nc3-a4 Qb6-a6 20.Be4-f3 Ng4-h6 21.Bb2xg7 Kg8xg7 22.Rf1-e1 Nh6-f5 23.Bf3-g4 Nf5-d4
µ (-1.30) Depth: 12 00:00:31 373kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Be4-g2 Rf7-f5
µ (-1.13) Depth: 13 00:01:27 1599kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Be4-g2 Ra8-b8 20.Nc3-e4 Ne5xc4 21.Nd2xc4 Qb6xb3 22.Qc2xb3 Na5xb3 23.Bb2xg7 Kg8xg7 24.Ne4-g5 b7-b5 25.Ng5xf7 b5xc4 26.Nf7-g5 c4-c3 27.Bg2-e4 Nb3-d4 28.Kg1-g2 Rb8-b3 29.Rf1-a1 a7-a5 30.a3-a4 Rb3-b4
µ (-1.13) Depth: 14 00:03:13 3867kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Be4-g2 Ra8-b8 20.Nc3-e4 Ne5xc4 21.Nd2xc4 Qb6xb3 22.Qc2xb3 Na5xb3 23.Bb2xg7 Kg8xg7 24.Ne4-g5 b7-b5 25.Ng5xf7 b5xc4 26.Nf7-g5 c4-c3 27.Bg2-e4 Nb3-d4 28.Kg1-g2 Rb8-b3 29.Rf1-a1 a7-a5 30.a3-a4 Rb3-b4
µ (-1.13) Depth: 15 00:03:52 4737kN
18...Rf8-f7 19.Be4-g2 Ra8-b8 20.Nc3-e4 Ne5xc4 21.Nd2xc4 Qb6xb3 22.Qc2xb3 Na5xb3 23.Bb2xg7 Kg8xg7 24.Ne4-g5 b7-b5 25.Nc4-e3 Rf7-f6 26.Rf1-e1 h7-h6 27.Ng5-e6+ Kg7-h7 28.f2-f4 Rf6-f7 29.Bg2-e4 Nb3-d2 30.Be4-g2
µ (-1.12) Depth: 16 00:05:37 7216kN
18...Ne5-g4 19.Be4-g2
µ (-1.05) Depth: 17 00:38:04 55664kN
18...Ne5-g4 19.Be4-g2 Ng4-h6 20.Nc3-e2 Bg7xb2 21.Qc2xb2 Qb6-c7 22.Qb2-c3 b7-b6 23.Ne2-f4 Rf8xf4 24.g3xf4 Nh6-f5 25.Rf1-e1 Nf5-d4 26.b3-b4 Na5-b7 27.b4xc5 b6xc5 28.Nd2-f3 Nd4xf3+ 29.Qc3xf3 Ra8-f8
³ (-0.54) Depth: 18 02:40:37 242267kN
18...Ne5-g4 19.Be4-g2 Ng4-h6 20.Nc3-e2 Bg7xb2 21.Qc2xb2 Nh6-f5 22.Qb2-c3 Qb6-a6 23.b3-b4 Na5xc4 24.Qc3xc4 Qa6xa3 25.b4xc5 Qa3xc5 26.Qc4-d3 Ra8-c8 27.Rf1-c1 Qc5-a5 28.Rc1-b1 Rc8-c7 29.Bg2-e4 Nf5-g7 30.Nd2-b3 Qa5-a3
³ (-0.50) Depth: 19 04:23:33 397357kN

(so k, 12.09.2008)
132: New game - Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit, 80'/40+40'/20+20'
r5k1/pp2prbp/1q1p2p1/n1pPn3/2P1B3/PP4P1/1BQN1P2/3N1RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit :

19...Ne5-g4
-+ (-1.77) Depth: 2 00:00:00
19...Ne5-g4
-+ (-1.75) Depth: 3 00:00:00
19...Ne5-g4
-+ (-1.74) Depth: 4 00:00:00
19...Ne5-g4 20.Bb2xg7
-+ (-1.64) Depth: 5 00:00:00
19...Ne5-g4 20.Bb2xg7 Rf7xg7 21.f2-f4
-+ (-1.56) Depth: 6 00:00:00 3kN
19...Ne5-g4 20.Bb2xg7 Rf7xg7 21.f2-f4 Ra8-f8 22.Rf1-e1 g6-g5
-+ (-1.47) Depth: 7 00:00:00 6kN
19...a7-a6 20.Nd1-e3 Ra8-e8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Bb2xg7 Rf7xg7 23.Be4-g2
µ (-1.29) Depth: 8 00:00:01 24kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Ne3-g4 h7-h5
µ (-1.35) Depth: 8 00:00:01 43kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Ne3-g4 Bg7xb2 23.Qc2xb2 Rf7-g7
µ (-1.28) Depth: 9 00:00:02 64kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Ne3-g4 Nd7-f6 23.Bb2xf6 e7xf6 24.f4-f5 g6-g5 25.Qc2-c3 Rf8-c8 26.Ng4-f2
µ (-1.19) Depth: 10 00:00:05 135kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Ne3-g4 Nd7-f6 23.Bb2xf6 e7xf6 24.f4-f5 g6-g5 25.Qc2-c3 Rf8-c8 26.Ng4-f2
µ (-1.19) Depth: 11 00:00:10 259kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Ne3-g4 Nd7-f6 23.Bb2xf6 e7xf6 24.f4-f5 g6-g5 25.Qc2-c3 Rf8-c8 26.Ng4-f2 Qb6-c7
µ (-1.08) Depth: 12 00:00:21 513kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Ne3-g4 Nd7-f6 23.Bb2xf6 e7xf6 24.f4-f5 g6-g5 25.Qc2-c3 Rf8-c8 26.Ng4-f2 Qb6-c7
µ (-1.08) Depth: 13 00:00:40 950kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.f2-f4 Ne5-d7 22.Ne3-g4 Nd7-f6 23.Bb2xf6 e7xf6 24.f4-f5 g6-g5 25.Qc2-c3 Rf8-c8 26.Ng4-f2 Qb6-c7
µ (-1.08) Depth: 14 00:01:06 1517kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.Be4-g2 g6-g5 22.Bb2xe5 Bg7xe5 23.Bg2-h3 Rf7-f6 24.Bh3-e6+ Rf6xe6
³ (-0.33) Depth: 15 00:12:19 16759kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.Be4-g2 g6-g5 22.Bb2xe5 Bg7xe5 23.Bg2-h3 Rf7-f6 24.Bh3-e6+ Rf6xe6
³ (-0.33) Depth: 16 00:24:44 34260kN
19...Ra8-b8 20.Nd1-e3 Rb8-f8 21.Be4-g2 g6-g5
³ (-0.32) Depth: 17 00:42:53 60541kN
19...Ne5-g4 20.Bb2xg7 Rf7xg7 21.Qc2-c3 Qb6-c7
³ (-0.27) Depth: 18 01:48:04 160869kN
19...Ne5-g4 20.Bb2xg7 Rf7xg7 21.Be4-g2 h7-h5 22.Bg2-h3 e7-e6 23.f2-f3
³ (-0.26) Depth: 19 02:23:08 212491kN

(so k, 12.09.2008)

[Omega-three]

It seems that rybka cannot find 19.Nd1 of my opponent even after a long search and she suggests 19.f4 at depth 20 after few houes(with more than one cpu results may be different but it may be intersting to see how much time does rybka 1 cpu needs to see 19.Nd1 because after 19.Nd1 she can see that the score is relatively better for white even at depth 15.

[d]r5k1/pp2prbp/1q1p2p1/n1pPn3/2P1B3/PPN3P1/1BQN1P2/5RK1 w - - 0 19

New game - Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit, 80'/40+40'/20+20' 2008
r5k1/pp2prbp/1q1p2p1/n1pPn3/2P1B3/PPN3P1/1BQN1P2/5RK1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Deep Rybka 3:

19.Nd1 Bh8 20.Ne3
-/+ (-0.76) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN
19.Nd1 a6
-/+ (-0.85) Depth: 7 00:00:00 4kN
19.Nd1
=/+ (-0.65 !) Depth: 8 00:00:00 6kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.63) Depth: 8 00:00:00 8kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.67) Depth: 9 00:00:00 11kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.68) Depth: 10 00:00:00 45kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.69) Depth: 11 00:00:00 61kN
19.Nd1 Raf8 20.Ne3 Bh6
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 12 00:00:05 435kN
19.Nd1 Bh6
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 13 00:00:10 879kN
19.Nd1 Bh6
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 14 00:00:13 1115kN
19.Nd1 Bh6 20.f4 Nd7
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 15 00:01:29 6742kN
19.Nd1 Rc8 20.Ne3 Rcf8 21.Bg2
=/+ (-0.51) Depth: 16 00:05:00 21724kN

[Uri Blass]

It seems that rybka cannot find 19.Nd1 of my opponent even after a long search and she suggests 19.f4 at depth 20 after few houes(with more than one cpu results may be different but it may be intersting to see how much time does rybka 1 cpu needs to see 19.Nd1 because after 19.Nd1 she can see that the score is relatively better for white even at depth 15.

[d]r5k1/pp2prbp/1q1p2p1/n1pPn3/2P1B3/PPN3P1/1BQN1P2/5RK1 w - - 0 19

New game - Rybka 3 1-cpu 32-bit, 80'/40+40'/20+20' 2008
r5k1/pp2prbp/1q1p2p1/n1pPn3/2P1B3/PPN3P1/1BQN1P2/5RK1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Deep Rybka 3:

19.Nd1 Bh8 20.Ne3
-/+ (-0.76) Depth: 6 00:00:00 1kN
19.Nd1 a6
-/+ (-0.85) Depth: 7 00:00:00 4kN
19.Nd1
=/+ (-0.65 !) Depth: 8 00:00:00 6kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.63) Depth: 8 00:00:00 8kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.67) Depth: 9 00:00:00 11kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.68) Depth: 10 00:00:00 45kN
19.Nd1 Kf8 20.Ne3
=/+ (-0.69) Depth: 11 00:00:00 61kN
19.Nd1 Raf8 20.Ne3 Bh6
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 12 00:00:05 435kN
19.Nd1 Bh6
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 13 00:00:10 879kN
19.Nd1 Bh6
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 14 00:00:13 1115kN
19.Nd1 Bh6 20.f4 Nd7
=/+ (-0.56) Depth: 15 00:01:29 6742kN
19.Nd1 Rc8 20.Ne3 Rcf8 21.Bg2
=/+ (-0.51) Depth: 16 00:05:00 21724kN

I wonder if this analysis is with clear hash

The scores at small depths suggest that the hash is not clear because rybka is unable to see less than one pawn advantage at small depth with clear hash when your analysis show less than 1 pawn for black even at depth 6.

Uri

[Omega-three]

The scores at small depths suggest that the hash is not clear because rybka is unable to see less than one pawn advantage at small depth with clear hash when your analysis show less than 1 pawn for black even at depth 6.

This is indeed strange. My analysis above was with 1 mb hash having loaded in the whole game and set white to find move 19 using infinite anlysis. If i just load the fen then it does not find Nd1 in a reasonable time. I reloaded the game and this time used 128 mb for hash and again it found Nd1 fairly quickly. So it seems that this is one of those positions that depends on whether you load the fen or the whole game maybe.

[lexdom]

Death by Ringtone

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4903