Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible?

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Uri Blass
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by Uri Blass »

Rolf wrote:
Uri Blass wrote: Rybka does not play 28.Qg3 and prefers 28.g4(except fast time control)
and I used slow PIV.
This is correct. You found it. Now I dont remember if Kosteniuk played it quickly or not. I remember faintly that she played it although g4 was already as the absolute hammer move on the display. Next question, why I still wrote the message after move 36.Rxh7 and not so logically take the difference between g4 and Qg3 so seriously. I think I argued to myself that the played Qg3 isnt a losing move at all neither one with a negative evaluation. It's just not the absolute top move.

Since you showed this the question could be asked if a player of her strength who relied on outside help in positions where she had really to find the only possible positive move when all others wouldnt just lose directly but would have got a negative evaluation. But perhaps, Uri, it's already wrong to speak of ONLY moves, if it's only displayed as the only move with a minimal positive value.

I see, this could be the nature of my wrong judgement. I relied too much on sophisticated perhaps empty differences in the eval of a machine where a real GM possible wouldnt see a relevant difference at all.

Perhaps this is the crux of these top machines in chess. We, the majority of very weak players or experts as we like to call us as non-masters we get irrationally misled by the facticity of output numbers who could in real also be presented with different flowers. But there is no proven or reliable truth in such small differences of deci-numbers.

What do you think?

Still we could try to research if it's common that such non-superGM players have so many machine-approved moves in their games. Perhaps others now could become interested?
I think that it is dependent on the type of the position.

I believe that we can easily find cases when even non GM's have rybka's moves for 14 moves.

part of these moves are clearly forced moves that are easy even for me to play and some moves are tactics that I may miss but I am not 2500 player.

I have 2035 fide rating and here are my comments after analysis with rybka:

23.axb5 is obvious capture
24.Nxb5 is also an obvious recapture(not forced but I see no reason not to play it and I expect most 2000 players to follow moves 23-24)

I believe that 25.Bd3 is also human natural choice(humans can think about the idea Bd3 and Qxh7 mate.

26.Rh4 is also a natural human move(threats Rxh7+)
27.Be2 is the only good escape for the bishop(27.Bc4 d5 is easy even for me to see)

28.Qg3 is not suggested

29.c4 is natural move to protect the white knight because black threats it.
The only alternative is Qxd6 but it is easy for 2500 player to see the line
Qxd6 Qxd6 Rxd6 Nd5 that threats both the rook at h4 and the bishop at e3

30.cxb5 is obvious recapture.

move 31 is also not hard for 2500 player who is careful not to fall into traps.

main alternative was trying to win a pawn by

31.Bxb6 Qxb6 but here 32.Qxd6 Qf2 is an easy fork for 2500 player to see.

Less easy is 32.Rxd6 Rc8 with the idea Rc1 mate and Rc2 when black get the advantage and I could probably blunder by that move in a game but
I am not close to 2500.

32.Bxd6 is one of many options to consider.
33.Qf4 is the best but also natural move.

34.Qc1 and 35.Qd2 are forced tactically.
It is not trivial tactics for 2000 players but I guess that it is tactics that 2500 players usually see.

Uri
S.Taylor
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by S.Taylor »

Albert Silver wrote:
Rolf wrote:In the game Kosteniuk played a series of single MUST play moves. after 22-b5. For this move Hou almost thought for half an hour and Kosteniuk wasnt known for being a super super GM player, no?

Take a look for yourself, play with Rybka 3 in the Fritz 11 online environment without special settings. Then you can see that the woman ALWAYS found the single solution of the analysis of Rybka 3. I personally dont believe that she could do that. Up to Rxh7 she had found 14 moves in whole at best after RYBKA 3. While Hou deviated from the Rybka scales.

Such a serie of only moves is impossible to find. IMO.

Now when I looked Kosteniuk wasnt suddenly able to find the winning b6 move instead played only Qe6. How strange.
Apparently the organizers are studying the recordings of the secret security cameras in the bathroom. When told of this, Kosteniuk immediately said that she was only messaging, and in any case, no one had any proof.
Isn't this another one of your jokes?
If it's not, then this IS very suspect.
Who on earth would be texting in the middle of a game? Emergency business matters?
S.Taylor
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by S.Taylor »

M ANSARI wrote:If she was text messaging in the toilet, then she should be disqualified even if she wasn't cheating. The rules are quite clear in that you cannot communicate with someone during a game. But in her case I might forgive her since unlike other chess playing girls, she is good to look at :wink:
This is very true in life, and people don't don't reealize it themselves, what is moving them.
I don't think that THIS would pass, however. But yes, todays standards put alot of value in good looks. That's about most of what is left in modern society.
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GenoM
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by GenoM »

It IS a joke even it's an unsuccessful one.
take it easy :)
Tony Thomas

Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by Tony Thomas »

GenoM wrote:It IS a joke even it's an unsuccessful one.
I would rather watch ricky raxxx than reading those toilet jokes.. They are so played out, blame Kramnik.
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by Sven »

I want to confirm what Uri says. I have no FIDE rating but my national rating in germany is about 1900 which is roughly comparable to a FIDE rating of 1900-2000. All the moves mentioned, each single one, are very natural moves for me which I would play without thinking too much. They are really obvious. White has already a strong position, and often there are only few possible replies for black, so calculating deeply is quite easy for strong humans here.

The moves from 23.axb5 up to 31.Bf4 do not require GM strength at all, they are "blitz moves". Perhaps it is a little bit more difficult to see that the following tactical lines after 31...Qa7 32.Bxd6 Bf2 33.Qf4 are correct but I think even here most players that are stronger than me would have no problems to see it. White has enough threats to confirm at least that black does not win material.

And I would even consider to play 36.Rxh7 in a tournament game with long time control (of course I would play it in blitz) since it is obvious that white gets a very strong king side attack with queen, two bishops and rook against the unsafe king (consider all these diagonals for the white bishops!) while still maintaining roughly equal material, if not a slight advantage, and while having a fairly safe own king position. Then, with GM strength this sacrifice is easily justified as correct and winning, most of the following moves are forced (including 38.Bg4 since other moves of the attacked Be2 are losing as well as counter-intuitive moves like 38.Qd2?) so you don't need Rybka to play 36.Rxh7.

Weak players sometimes tend to think that it is like a "miracle" if someone plays ten optimal moves in a row. In general it is not, of course it depends on the type of position. Active chess players know that (I play tournament chess for 27 years now).

So there was no cheating IMO.

Sven
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Rolf
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by Rolf »

Probably not but let's take a look. What does it mean if Rybka 3 in three-var mode gives one with a positive value and the others with negative AND a human player always (Uri found a single exception) plays the good (?) move 14 times in a row, isnt that strange? Where is the wrong assumption in my question?
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
Albert Silver
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by Albert Silver »

Tony Thomas wrote:
GenoM wrote:It IS a joke even it's an unsuccessful one.
I would rather watch ricky raxxx than reading those toilet jokes.. They are so played out, blame Kramnik.
I thought the whole thread was a 'toilet' joke. My quip wasn't even meant as a real joke, but rather to point out how silly the thread was (IMHO), and how ridiculous I thought the suggestion Kosteniuk cheated was.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
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Rolf
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by Rolf »

Albert Silver wrote:
Tony Thomas wrote:
GenoM wrote:It IS a joke even it's an unsuccessful one.
I would rather watch ricky raxxx than reading those toilet jokes.. They are so played out, blame Kramnik.
I thought the whole thread was a 'toilet' joke. My quip wasn't even meant as a real joke, but rather to point out how silly the thread was (IMHO), and how ridiculous I thought the suggestion Kosteniuk cheated was.
What suggestion? That is not your usual style IMO. You must not intentionalkly twist other people's messages to save your own jokes IMO. Where exactly is a suggestion?
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
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mariaclara
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Re: Kosteniuk played a serie of RYBKA 3 ONLY moves- Possible

Post by mariaclara »

:D

way beyond reality....... :!: :wink:
and how ridiculous I thought the suggestion Kosteniuk cheated was.
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................. Mu Shin ..........................