rybka 1.0 and plaggerism: has the case been compiled yet

[Terry McCracken]

Somone with a bloody brain, that's who!

Your deceit will bury you.

Terry,

This post got a complaint. Personally I don't see it as an attack, but I think this thread is getting out of hand. Everybody here should stay civil, no need to get emotional. Any further trouble here and the thread will get locked or deleted.

Zach

The implication is that Rolf doesn't have a brain.
If I asked you whether you had a brain, wouldn't you see that as offensive?

No! That wasn't the implication at all! In fact the reverse is true! Rolf claims he smarter than all of us and tosses my name into the mix, as he thinks his words are all that matters! Not so, and I like many others see through Rolf very quickly!

If you didn't intend your post as an insult, then I apologise.

Apology Accepted, Thanks. I see why it was easy to misread. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

[Terry McCracken]

The arrogance! Take your best shot Rolf!

Terry, this is the moment I count on you to keep it civil, for once you believe me that I'm not pouring evil on these 4 guys just like you told us that they havent done any harm to Vas. So, please say for this one time, yes, Rolf, in thanks for the two nice music pieces you've sent me from chess musicals, I believe you this one time that you are honest in this case and I want to let it just pass. I remain friendly and peaceful, This one time.

And I promise you that I would admire you for such improvement.

Are you ready, Terry? No arrogance, no nothing, just you and me who had sent you these tracks.

Peace for this time, ok?

Rolf regards of peace

That's your best shot Rolf?...Excuse me...I'm having a fit of laughter over this one.

Thanks for cheering me up! I needed that.

[bob]

It is _way_ beyond time to stop this line of reasoning. Why don't you take some free-source programs, and look to see how much similarity you find? See if you find identical arrays of evaluation constants. Large blocks of code that are identical. Even an identical bug here and there. You keep saying it is very likely. You should be able to prove that, there are dozens of programs to choose from, so the similarities should be rampant if your supposition is anywhere near reality...

Excuse me if I ask you back a question, because this message troubled me a bit. It seems to me as if you would speak to yourself and argue that the way you assisted yourself in the campaign (others call it smear campaign and I could agree) although the alibi you gave yourself is windy at least and certainly unallowed IMO, namely that what you insinuáte in Rybka vers. 1 you could likewise apply for all commercial = meaning unknown details of code and for all the rest of free progs. Why are you not in this chase or hunt after always new clones or stealing or borrowing or such - WHY you had to start this with the known and already experienced constellation after the first market shouts from Theron? What is the motif for your activities? Dont you realise that if you just claimed that you as a scientist just couldnt tolerate this or that, that then only had to be proven exactly, that you then must answer questions why you dont react in that manner in every thinkable other case, why only in the case of such a brilliant programmer collegue? Justify this if you can, Bob.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Some points: (1) I have been involved in several "clone expose' activities". several have copied crafty and claimed their work was original. Questions were asked by others, I looked carefully, and verified that copying had been done. SO this was not "the first" whatever that means - I didn't "start" here. I do not condone plagiarism in any form. It has a negative affect on computer chess in general. That is my "motif" (whatever that is). (2) name any "other" case I have reacted differently in, since I again do not recall one. I have not been directly involved in many such efforts, nor was I involved in this one, other than to point out that arguments from Uri are simply incorrect with respect to the likelihood of two different people producing identical blocks of code.

Again, I come with always the same: why dont you propose a general opening of all codes just to be able to control the legal situation and if everything is kosher in your eyes of expertise. Why do you hesitate?

I could propose that you give me large sums of money as well. Are you going to do so? Proposing things that have no chance of happening is a waste of time.

And last question: dont you realise that what others always say so rightfully that already now after the longer campaign with your assistance the name of Vas has already been damaged at least seen on a view from CCC members and friends? Are you blind for these effects? Dont you agree with CW and George too that you should have since long have made your warning considerations in public to demonstrate the crowd on what shallow level Theron has started this smear campagne? I mean your authority is what counts. You make it clear one or two times and then it's respected. Give your say therefore! Dont duck and hide so much.

Could you try to write so that it doesn't follow such a convoluted path to the point? What "warning considerations in public" should I have made? Again, my part in the discussion was to discount the idea that A and B could write a program and produce identical pieces of code (whether it be evaluation numbers, function names/structure, data structures, or actual lines of code).

IF there is significant duplication between Rybka 1 / strelka / fruit, it is _not_ serendipitous...

[bob]

There was no absolute proof that Vas copied anything.
Bill

Bill, Im surprised at you. You know full well that in this smear campaign truth is completely irrelevant. Innuendos are considered a success. The idea was only to drag Vas' name and reputation thru the mud. And if it had not been for the wiseness and expertise of Chris Whittington- that is exactly what would have happened. This thing needs to die a calm and peaceful death and just fade away like an old soldier.

Best,

So once again, you return, with nothing useful to say at all, and use some form of clairvoyance to read the minds of others so that you can categorically state exactly what their intentions were/are...

Things will unfold at the pace they unfold at, not at the pace you want...

When i try to describe what is spewing from your mouth- it gets deleted by one of your dear friends. I guess the truth hurts, Lord Hyatt.

One could say exactly the same about things you write as well...

[ozziejoe]

Folks, the key point of this thread is to move the discussion forward (at least i hoped). I wanted to know if the decompilers had found anything else.

If after a month of pouring through the code, they found nothing else, that would be informative, woudln't it? Or if they have been finding potential examples of plagerism, and have not finished the case to vas, then that would be informative too? I love computer chess and would like to know the truth here.

It would be great if the specific case was formulated for all the read, and then put to Vas for him to respond. Maybe it could also be sent to Fabien, to see if he still believes that there were no problems with rybka/strelka code?

So
1) compose formal case in letter to vas, providing all available evidence
2) send letter to vas, wait for response
3) send letter to fabien, wait for response.


Until i see this done, I will not be convinced, no matter how many super experts describe me (and others) as biased, unknowledgable, or just plain stupid (one does not say person X has a brain, without implying person Y has no brain .

As a scientist, I have seen super-experts get it wrong time after time (insert cyndy lauper song here)


best
j

[bob]

Somone with a bloody brain, that's who!

Your deceit will bury you.

Terry,

This post got a complaint. Personally I don't see it as an attack, but I think this thread is getting out of hand. Everybody here should stay civil, no need to get emotional. Any further trouble here and the thread will get locked or deleted.

Zach

I think locking it is a good idea. Nothing useful is coming from it. The usual suspects just want to spin it out of control again. Since nothing useful will come from it, I don't see any need to let it continue.

[bob]

I have a lot of respect for those involved, but I abhor the way they went about their project.

Just curious, what exactly did we/they do?

It seems to me that whatever genuine efforts anybody had in this were drowned in an ocean of inane argumentation. IOW, neither side was fully to blame for what ensued.

You should build a watertight case and then present it rather than making accusations beforehand.

You do realize that part of "building the case" was done _right_ here. As were prior clone discussions about other programs such as Le Petite, Voyager, Bionic, to name some that were copied from my program. This is the right place to discuss this. It is a "discussion forum" where lots of technically competent people participate... So discussions should not happen on a discussion forum until after the discussions are completed???? How, then, can that happen. How can people join in and participate if they don't know there is something to participate in?

This angle of the discussion is a bit hard to digest...

[Zach Wegner]

I'd rather not go into much detail here at the risk of starting another flame war, but here is the basic situation:

1. There has been additional findings since the last ones were publicly posted.
2. I have had very little time to work on it, as I have about 10 other projects that I am actively involved in. It's going pretty slow.
3. I haven't talked much with the other "investigators" in the past few weeks.
4. I don't know how long it will take to get everything assembled. Decompiling in itself is pretty tedious, but that cannot compare to creating a whole web page documenting it all.

[Zach Wegner]

I think locking it is a good idea. Nothing useful is coming from it. The usual suspects just want to spin it out of control again. Since nothing useful will come from it, I don't see any need to let it continue.

It seems to be going rather reasonably since the warning, so I'll let it stay for now. If there's much more flaming I'll lock it.

[Rolf]

Bob, the question is, why you insist that this is your playing field if Crafty isnt involved this time at all. Are you the guy who these guys could always hire to spend hours of work to chase someone who still couldnt be proven of having done anything wrong other than that he was inspired and took some ideas from Fabien for his three year old first version! In the meantime all have read Fruit, are they too uninspired to use it? But again if nothing comes out of it what have you to do in this business? Dont you think that your status could suffer if nothing comes out? Again, I'm only speaking about a non-Crafty case. And Bob, the insinuative insulting tone in messages from CT and Norm isnt inexistent through mere hand-waving. It's fact. And this was necessary to do with your support and without your critic? Why?