Opening Help

[LaurenceChen]

[d] r1bqk1r1/ppppnp1Q/8/b2P4/2n5/5N2/P2N1PPP/R1B2RK1 b q - 0 1

Can White survive this position? What does you chess engine think?

[krazyken]

Hiarcs 12.1 says it's fine:

info depth 20 score cp 0 time 59253 nodes 330608447 nps 5579606 pv c4d2 c1d2 a5d2 f3e5 g8f8 e5f7 f8f7 h7h8 f7f8 h8h5 e7g6 h5g6 f8f7 g6g8 f7f8 a1e1 d2e1 f1e1 d8e7 e1e7 e8e7 g8g5 e7f7 g5f4 f7g7 f4g5 g7h7 g5e7 h7g8 e7g5 g8h7

[kgburcham]

[d] r1bqk1r1/ppppnp1Q/8/b2P4/2n5/5N2/P2N1PPP/R1B2RK1 b q -

Deep Sjeng WC2008

16/52 0:57 0.00 1...Nxd2 2.Bxd2 Bxd2 3.Ne5 Rf8 4.Nxf7 Rxf7 5.Qh8+ Rf8 6.Qh5+ Ng6 7.Qxg6+ Rf7 8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Rfe1+ Bxe1 10.Qg6+ Rf7 11.Qg8+ Rf8 (186.472.326) 3229
17/52 0:58 0.00 1...Nxd2 2.Bxd2 Bxd2 3.Ne5 Rf8 4.Nxf7 Rxf7 5.Qh8+ Rf8 6.Qh5+ Ng6 7.Qxg6+ Rf7 8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Rfe1+ Bxe1 10.Qg6+ Rf7 11.Qg8+ Rf8 (188.168.958) 3230
18/57 1:15 0.00 1...Nxd2 2.Bxd2 Bxd2 3.Ne5 Rf8 4.Nxf7 Rxf7 5.Qh8+ Rf8 6.Qh5+ Ng6 7.Qxg6+ Rf7 8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Rfe1+ Bxe1 10.Qg6+ Rf7 11.Qg8+ Rf8 (241.234.584) 3214
19/58 2:26 0.00 1...Nxd2 2.Bxd2 Bxd2 3.Ne5 Rf8 4.Nxf7 Rxf7 5.Qh8+ Rf8 6.Qh5+ Ng6 7.Qxg6+ Rf7 8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Rfe1+ Bxe1 10.Qg6+ Rf7 11.Qg8+ Rf8 (468.648.198) 3198
20/60 4:33 0.00 1...Nxd2 2.Bxd2 Bxd2 3.Ne5 Rf8 4.Nxf7 Rxf7 5.Qh8+ Rf8 6.Qh5+ Ng6 7.Qxg6+ Rf7 8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Rfe1+ Bxe1 10.Qg6+ Rf7 11.Qg8+ Rf8 (876.370.421) 3202
21/61 8:34 0.00 1...Nxd2 2.Bxd2 Bxd2 3.Ne5 Rf8 4.Nxf7 Rxf7 5.Qh8+ Rf8 6.Qh5+ Ng6 7.Qxg6+ Rf7 8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Rfe1+ Bxe1 10.Qg6+ Rf7 11.Qg8+ Rf8 (1.640.846.629) 3190
22/61 17:27 0.00 1...Nxd2 2.Bxd2 Bxd2 3.Ne5 Rf8 4.Nxf7 Rxf7 5.Qh8+ Rf8 6.Qh5+ Ng6 7.Qxg6+ Rf7 8.Qg8+ Rf8 9.Rfe1+ Bxe1 10.Qg6+ Rf7 11.Qg8+ Rf8 (3.332.652.574) 3181
best move: Nc4xd2 time: 39:28.406 min n/s: 3.185.766 nodes: 7.543.201.248

[LaurenceChen]

Thanks. White has a forced draw in this position only if Black plays the correct move Nxd2 instead of Bxd2. Oh well! Back to the drawing board!

[LaurenceChen]

[d] r2qk3/ppp1np1Q/3p2r1/3P4/6b1/4R3/P2B1PPP/R6K b q - 0 1

Black to move?
Can Black survive this position? The obvious move 21. ... Kd7? loses the game. How good of a move is 21. .... c5!?
Black is up a whole piece, therefore, Black must find a way to return the material and put his king into safety.

[pijl]

[d] r2qk3/ppp1np1Q/3p2r1/3P4/6b1/4R3/P2B1PPP/R6K b q - 0 1

Black to move?
Can Black survive this position? The obvious move 21. ... Kd7? loses the game. How good of a move is 21. .... c5!?
Black is up a whole piece, therefore, Black must find a way to return the material and put his king into safety.

CTD gives a rook for the pawn on d5 with the following line:
21..Bf5 22.Rae1 Re6 23.Qh8 Kd7 24.dxe5 Bxe5

The score indicates advantage (0.8) for white, but the trend is a declining score.
Richard.

[bob]

I got this:

21 7:22 1.45 1. ... Bf5 2. Rae1 Re6 3. Qh8+ Kd7
4. dxe6+ fxe6 5. Qb2 b6 6. Qb3 Qg8
7. Rg3 Qh8 8. Qa4+ c6 9. Bc3 e5 10.
Rd1 b5 11. Qa6 Qc8 12. Qxc8+ Rxc8 13.
Bxe5 Nd5 14. Rg7+ Ke6 (s=2)
. 21 7:22 2/30* 1. ... Rg5 (17.6Mnps)

[Eelco de Groot]

[d] r2qk3/ppp1np1Q/3p2r1/3P4/6b1/4R3/P2B1PPP/R6K b q - 0 1

Black to move?
Can Black survive this position? The obvious move 21. ... Kd7? loses the game. How good of a move is 21. .... c5!?
Black is up a whole piece, therefore, Black must find a way to return the material and put his king into safety.

The moves are failing low one after the other, first 1... Rg5, then 1... Be6 to a lesser extent, this maybe means Toga Mara Beta does not understand the position at least not at this depth , finally then Toga settles on 1... Bf5, like Crafty and CTD, but the score is decreasing (from Black's point of view).


[d]r2qk3/ppp1np1Q/3p2r1/3P4/6b1/4R3/P2B1PPP/R6K b q -

Engine: Toga Mara Beta 6 (Athlon 2009 MHz, 256 MB)
by Fabien Letouzey, Thomas Gaksch and Tam

11 0:17 -0.84 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.Rxe7+ Qxe7
4.Qxe7+ Kxe7 5.Bxg5+ Kd7 6.Rb1 b6
7.Be3 Bf5 8.Rb4 Re8 9.Kg1 Bd3 (9.804.969) 562

11 0:18 -0.96 1...Rg5 2.Rxe7+ Qxe7 3.Bxg5 Qxg5
4.Qh8+ Kd7 5.Qxa8 Qxd5 6.Re1 Be6
7.Qxa7 Qxa2 8.Qxa2 Bxa2 9.h4 b5
10.h5 Be6 11.Kh2 b4 12.h6 Bf5 13.Kg3 (10.201.044) 562

11 0:22 -0.98 1...c6 2.Rae1 Rc8 3.Qh4 Rc7 4.Qh8+ Kd7
5.Rxe7+ Qxe7 6.Rxe7+ Kxe7 7.Qb8 Rd7
8.Qxa7 cxd5 9.Qd4 Be6 10.Bf4 (12.551.719) 562

____________________________________________________________

12 1:00 -1.00 1...Rg5 2.Rxe7+ Qxe7 3.Bxg5 Qxg5
4.Qh8+ Kd7 5.Qxa8 Qxd5 6.Re1 Be6
7.Qxa7 Qxa2 8.Qxb7 Qxf2 9.Qe4 Kd8
10.g4 d5 11.Rd1 (32.443.465) 540

12 1:11 -1.22 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Rc3 Qg8
7.Qa3 Nd5 8.Rc4 Kc8 9.Qa6+ Kb8 (38.813.013) 540

12 1:13 -1.63 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Nxd5 6.Ra3 Bh5 7.Rxa7 Rf2
8.Ba5 b5 9.Kg1 Re2 10.Rd1 (39.679.242) 540

____________________________________________________________

13 1:38 -0.93 1...Rg5 2.Rxe7+ Qxe7 3.Bxg5 Qxg5
4.Qh8+ Kd7 5.Qxa8 Qxd5 6.Re1 Be6
7.Qxa7 Qxa2 8.Qxb7 Qxf2 9.Qb5+ Kd8
10.Rd1 Qc2 11.Ra1 Ke7 (54.313.215) 554

13 1:47 -1.26 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Rc3 Qg8
7.Qa3 Nd5 8.Rc4 b5 9.Rd4 (59.685.981) 554

13 1:55 -1.62 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Nxd5 6.Ra3 Rf2 7.Rd3 Nb6 8.g6 Nc4
9.Be3 Nxe3 10.Rxe3 Be6 11.Rae1 (63.921.796) 554

____________________________________________________________

14 4:22 -1.44 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qa3 Nd5
7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qh8 9.Rc1 Rc8 10.Kg1 a5 (153.267.477) 581

14 4:53 -1.56 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Nxd5 6.Rg3 Be6 7.Kg1 Ne7
8.Re1 Ng6 9.Rge3 Bc4 10.Ra3 a6 (170.412.618) 581

14 5:00 -2.95 1...Rg5 2.Rae1 Re5 3.Rxe5 dxe5
4.Rxe5 Qd6 5.Qg8+ Kd7 6.Qxg4+ f5
7.Qg7 Re8 8.h3 Qb6 9.Bg5 Qb4 10.Qf7 Qd6
11.Re1 (174.860.649) 581

____________________________________________________________

14 4:22 -1.44 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qa3 Nd5
7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qh8 9.Rc1 Rc8 10.Kg1 a5 (153.267.477) 587

14 4:53 -1.56 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Nxd5 6.Rg3 Be6 7.Kg1 Ne7
8.Re1 Ng6 9.Rge3 Bc4 10.Ra3 a6 (170.412.618) 587

14 5:41 -2.29 1...c6 2.Rae1 Rc8 3.h3 Bf5 4.Qh5 Rc7
5.Qxf5 Kf8 6.Qh5 Kg7 7.dxc6 b6
8.Bc3+ f6 9.Re6 Nxc6 10.Kg1 (200.787.379) 587

____________________________________________________________

14 6:40 -1.16 1...Be6 2.dxe6 fxe6 3.f4 Kd7 4.f5 Rf6
5.fxe6+ Kc8 6.Ree1 Rf5 7.h4 Rf8
8.Rac1 Rh8 9.Qe4 Kb8 (232.104.745) 580

14 4:22 -1.44 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qa3 Nd5
7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qh8 9.Rc1 Rc8 10.Kg1 a5 (153.267.477) 580

14 4:53 -1.56 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Nxd5 6.Rg3 Be6 7.Kg1 Ne7
8.Re1 Ng6 9.Rge3 Bc4 10.Ra3 a6 (170.412.618) 580

____________________________________________________________

15 8:55 -1.18 1...Be6 2.dxe6 fxe6 3.f4 Kd7 4.f5 Rf6
5.fxe6+ Kc8 6.Ree1 Rf5 7.h4 Rf8
8.Bg5 Re8 9.Rab1 Kb8 10.Rec1 (304.801.569) 565

15 10:04 -1.37 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qb3 Qg8
7.Qa4+ Kc8 8.Rg3 Qh8 9.Bg5 Nd5
10.Rc1 Qb2 (342.623.074) 565

15 11:08 -1.66 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Nxd5 6.Rg3 Be6 7.Kg1 Ne7
8.Rf3 Rxf3 9.gxf3 Ng6 10.Kf2 c5
11.f4 b6 12.Kg3 Ne7 13.Bc3 (377.686.737) 565

____________________________________________________________

16 17:14 -1.31 1...Be6 2.dxe6 fxe6 3.f4 Kd7 4.f5 Rf6
5.fxe6+ Kc8 6.Ree1 Rf5 7.Rf1 Re5
8.Bh6 Rh5 9.g4 Rh3 10.Rf7 Nd5 (579.098.165) 553

16 19:59 -1.38 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qb3 Qg8
7.Qa4+ Kc8 8.Rg3 Qh8 9.Bg5 Nd5
10.Rc1 Kb7 11.Qc6+ Kb8 (668.657.882) 553

16 23:29 -1.59 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Nxd5 6.Rg3 Be6 7.Re1 Rf2
8.Rd3 b5 9.Kg1 Nf4 10.Bxf4 Rxf4
11.Ra3 Rg4 12.Rxa7 Rxg5 (779.488.899) 553

____________________________________________________________

17 40:49 -1.46 1...Bf5 2.Rae1 Re6 3.Qh8+ Kd7
4.dxe6+ fxe6 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qb3 Qg8
7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qh7 9.Rc3 b5 10.Qa6 Rg8
11.Qxa7+ Kc8 12.Qa6+ Kb8 13.Bf4 (1.367.002.018) 554

17 61:03 -1.58 1...Be6 2.dxe6 fxe6 3.f4 Kd7 4.f5 Rf6
5.fxe6+ Kc8 6.Ree1 Rg6 7.h4 b6 8.Bg5 Rxg5
9.hxg5 Kb7 10.Rac1 Qh8 11.Qh2 Rf8
12.Qxh8 Rxh8+ 13.Kg1 (2.029.590.036) 554

17 51:39 -1.70 1...Kd7 2.Qxf7 Rg5 3.f4 Qf8 4.Qxf8 Rxf8
5.fxg5 Bh5 6.Rd3 Rf5 7.Re1 Bf7 8.Kg1 Rxd5
9.Rf3 Bh5 10.Rf2 Re5 11.Rb1 b5
12.Rf8 (1.718.759.489) 554

Eelco

[Ovyron]

Any chance of releasing Toga Mara? Should we create a begging thread?

[Eelco de Groot]

[d] r2qk3/ppp1np1Q/3p2r1/3P4/6b1/4R3/P2B1PPP/R6K b q - 0 1

Black to move?
Can Black survive this position? The obvious move 21. ... Kd7? loses the game. How good of a move is 21. .... c5!?
Black is up a whole piece, therefore, Black must find a way to return the material and put his king into safety.

The moves are failing low one after the other, first 1... Rg5, then 1... Be6 to a lesser extent, this maybe means Toga Mara Beta does not understand the position at least not at this depth , finally then Toga settles on 1... Bf5, like Crafty and CTD, but the score is decreasing (from Black's point of view).

After

[FEN "r2qk3/ppp1np1Q/3p2r1/3P4/6b1/4R3/P2B1PPP/R6K b q -"]

1... Bf5 2. Rae1 Re6 3. Qh8+ Kd7 4. dxe6+ fxe6 *

I get

[d]r2q3Q/pppkn3/3pp3/5b2/8/4R3/P2B1PPP/4R2K w - -

Engine: Toga Mara Beta 6 (256 MB)
by Fabien Letouzey, Thomas Gaksch and Tam

14 3:07 +1.36 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qb3 Qg8 7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qh7
9.Kg1 Kc7 10.Rc1 c5 11.Rc4 Nd5
12.Qa3 Kd8 13.Bg5+ Ne7 (84.046.870) 452

14 4:04 +1.08 5.Qh5 Qg8 6.Rb3 Rb8 7.Kg1 e5 8.Bg5 Qg6
9.Qxg6 Bxg6 10.Bxe7 Kxe7 11.f4 Ke6
12.g4 Bc2 13.f5+ Kf6 (109.809.190) 452

14 5:10 +1.00 5.Qd4 Nc6 6.Qf4 Qg8 7.Rb3 Rb8 8.Rc1 Qh7
9.Rxc6 Kxc6 10.Qa4+ Kd5 11.Qxa7 Qh8
12.Bc3 Qh5 13.Rb5+ c5 14.f3 (140.630.257) 452

______________________________________________________________

15 8:08 +1.36 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qb3 Qg8 7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qh7
9.Qa6 Kc7 10.Rc1 c5 11.Rb3 Be4
12.Bg5 Bd5 13.Bxe7 Bxb3 14.Bxd6+ Kxd6
15.axb3 (219.333.412) 450

15 11:02 +1.01 5.Qh5 Qg8 6.Rb3 Rb8 7.Kg1 e5 8.Bg5 Nc6
9.Rg3 Rf8 10.Bh6 Qh8 11.Rf3 Rf6
12.Rxf5 Qxh6 (298.558.308) 450

15 14:02 +0.98 5.Qd4 Nc6 6.Qf4 Qg8 7.Rb3 Rb8 8.Rc1 Qh7
9.Rxc6 Kxc6 10.Qa4+ Kd5 11.Qxa7 Qh8
12.Rc3 c5 13.Kg1 b5 14.Qd7 (379.967.474) 450

______________________________________________________________

16 20:24 +1.40 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qb3 Qg8 7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qh8
9.Rd1 Nd5 10.Rc1 b5 11.Qa6 Rc8 12.a4 Qb2
13.Bh6 bxa4 14.Rg7+ Ne7 15.Qxa7+ Rc7
16.Qxa4 Qxf2 (552.517.332) 461

16 33:55 +1.02 5.Qd4 Nc6 6.Qf4 Qg8 7.Rb3 Qh7 8.Rxb7 Rg8
9.Qf3 Bd3 10.Bc3 e5 11.Qd5 Ba6
12.Rb3 Bd3 13.Ba5 (938.705.185) 461

16 28:10 +0.97 5.Qh5 Qg8 6.Rb3 Rb8 7.Rc1 Qh7 8.Qe2 Be4
9.f3 Bd5 10.Rbc3 c5 11.Bf4 Nc6
12.Rd1 Nd4 13.Qe1 (775.045.745) 461

______________________________________________________________

17 53:24 +1.53 5.Qb2 b6 6.Qb3 Qg8 7.Qa4+ c6 8.Rg3 Qf8
9.Rc1 a6 10.Bg5 b5 11.Qh4 Ng6
12.Qh7+ Ne7 13.Bxe7 Qe8 14.Qh4 Qxe7
15.Qxe7+ Kxe7 16.Rxc6 e5 17.Rc7+ Kf6 (1.490.283.390) 467

17 90:26 +1.34 5.Qh5 Qg8 6.Rg3 Qh7 7.Qxh7 Bxh7
8.Rg7 Bd3 9.Re3 Ba6 10.h4 e5 11.h5 Rh8
12.Rh3 Ke6 13.h6 Bc4 14.Ra3 Rf8
15.h7 Kf6 (2.537.409.018) 467

17 65:28 +1.01 5.Qd4 Nc6 6.Qf4 Qg8 7.Rb3 Qg6 8.Rxb7 Rg8
9.Qf3 Bd3 10.Bf4 Be2 11.Rxe2 Nd4
12.Rxe6 Nxe6 13.Bg3 Nc5 14.Rb4 Rh8 (1.843.242.017) 467