Interfacing the Novag Citrine

[sje]

best to let Spooky cat have his/her way with Le Citrine Steve
if you try workarounds that will prevent her complete access to it she will only fixate on the computer every time you are near it
let her do her thing and eventually she will get bored with it and leave you in peace
its her house too

Oops, I forgot to mention that Spooky is a boy. He fills the boy-cat-with-a-name-starting-with-an-S slot formerly occupied by Smokey and by StirFry before him. Yet everything you say is correct regardless of feline gender.

[Steve B]

Steve

a few things to check for in your New Le Citrine

1)when you play a game to a conclusion..(either a draw or mate appears in the display)..check to see if the computer locks or freezes at that point and you cannot replay the game or start a new game without resetting the computer
2)when playing black from bottom...if you make an error in performing a capture..you pick up the captured piece first(not the capturing piece)check to see if the game locks/freezes with the display indicating Ver B8 in the display ..again ..a hot reboot is needed
this does not occur when playing White from bottom
3)sound function..check if you can set the sound to any other option other then ..ON/OFF

these were three minor bugs that i did notice in the Le Citrine version i have(the second production run..)

Regards From the No Spin Zone
Steve

[sje]

1) After many games, I have seen a freeze on none of them.

2) I've only tried one game with a board flip (Black on the bottom), and had no problems.

3) The sound can be either on or off; there are no intermediary settings.

My Citrine's serial number is 208557.

[Steve B]

1) After many games, I have seen a freeze on none of them.

2) I've only tried one game with a board flip (Black on the bottom), and had no problems.

3) The sound can be either on or off; there are no intermediary settings.

My Citrine's serial number is 208557.

ok thanks
for two...you would need to actually screw up a capture on purpose or you wont see this minor bug

Steve

[Robert Weck]

I believe that the citrine program is not in any previous computer, the

I don't own a Citrine, but i had the chance to do a comparison with the Star Ruby; both had to play white and[7b] black with identical openings.

This test showed clearly, that the programs are basically the same (identical evaluation, same variants and identical moves in around 95-98%); the SR was slightly faster, but only around 3-5%.

Of course the Citrine program could be modified/improved, which might cause the improvement in BT2450, but its not really new...


Robert

P.S.: Or does the latest series have a different program?

[Karmazen & Oliver]

I believe that the citrine program is not in any previous computer, the

I don't own a Citrine, but i had the chance to do a comparison with the Star Ruby; both had to play white and black with identical openings.

OK, well, that can be a possibility, ... the selections of the book and plays-moves look like each other among all the computers with a speed of similar calculates ( MIPS ), the cpu is similar and the ram also, and the (main-lines) books-moves are all similars... in novag...

This test showed clearly, that the programs are basically the same (identical evaluation, same variants and identical moves in around 95-98%); the SR was slightly faster, but only around 3-5%.

the doubt this in that the differences in the test bt-2450 are too disparate as for not keeping them in mind... it´s a lot of diferent points of ELO: and it represents that citrine solves very well many tactical positions in time of real game ...

I believe that citrine has the algorithms optimized for a semifast games, which is it more fast ?, perhaps the solution goes to match those two computers to rhythms of 15 min / game and 30 min / game. and to see like it is unwrapped... ( exits some match N.Citrine versus Star Ruby or N. obsidian ??? )

and if citrine wins enough games, I don't believe that citrine wins the games thanks to the book, the book is a disaster, ( it is possible that it loses some games "thanks" to the book... ) I believe that the improvement can be "like" it takes advantage of the other player's time ... but other computers have it too...

Of course the Citrine program could be modified/improved, which might cause the improvement in BT2450, but its not really new...
Robert
P.S.: Or does the latest series have a different program?

Indeed, if the program has been modified?, the program is not the same, truth is´t ...?

I don't know if the new Citrines brings the same program, but I can assure you that in "my citrine"..., I see remarkable differences among the elections moves that it makes and they made, for example, star diamond, or sapphire 2...

perhaps the bugs in first units, had "some" extra changes after this..., and when they saw many bugs in the book, ... then they "installed" a version more similar to the classic star ruby, perhaps be on the contrary ... perhaps the new units look like each other more to star ruby program, and alone the first units were different... (joke?)

I am in that case, I didn't allow that "they made the repairs" on MY unit, I have preferred to maintain their configuration of original program... with same bugs, after a lot of years... (perhaps in the future, it costs more money of that ... ) and although he/she has some bugs in the book, the elections (out-book) of the program don't stop to surprise me...

I am surprised for that is not typical of that level of computers chess... can you always stay looking to citrine and thinking, "what "day" will this computer have today ? "... the doubt makes you prove... to see that it will happen...

with citrine you always have a hope, you don't know if today you met with an error in the book and don't know how to take advantage of it, you don't know if you met with a rival of 2200 points (with a tactical level of 2400 in some moves) or with a rival of 1900 ... (or both in different phases of the game) ... that had a good time (amusing) is that when you win... you can always think that you have won to the "good" citrine...

if the citrine objective is "to entertain", you have for sure the objective this compliment. very few computers have given so much that to speak...

old~news Citrine greetings.

bye from spain. oliver.

[Robert Weck]

the doubt this in that the differences in the test bt-2450 are too disparate as for not keeping them in mind... it´s a lot of diferent points of ELO: and it represents that citrine solves very well many tactical positions in time of real game ...

Ok, so please post your results (2450 and 2630) so that we can see the differences...

I believe that citrine has the algorithms optimized for a semifast games, which is it more fast ?, perhaps the solution goes to match those two computers to rhythms of 15 min / game and 30 min / game. and to see like it is unwrapped... ( exits some match N.Citrine versus Star Ruby or N. obsidian ??? )

but you should be aware, that you would have to play many games to clearly verify a difference (PC engine freaks claim, that you need at least 100, to eliminate most statistical inaccuracy; the more, the better)

and if citrine wins enough games, I don't believe that citrine wins the games thanks to the book, the book is a disaster, ( it is possible that it loses some games "thanks" to the book... )

this would be (even more!) true for Star Ruby and Obsidian, as their books are surely worse (and smaller) than Citrine's. Steve already had shown (some time ago), that some lines had been improved in the Citrine.

to eliminate the influence of the library, both computers should be given identical openings (playing each line with white and black)

Of course the Citrine program could be modified/improved, which might cause the improvement in BT2450, but its not really new...
Robert
P.S.: Or does the latest series have a different program?

Indeed, if the program has been modified?, the program is not the same, truth is´t ...?

please read my posting clearly: i wrote, it is basically the same! This does not mean, it is identical...

I don't know if the new Citrines brings the same program, but I can assure you that in "my citrine"..., I see remarkable differences among the elections moves that it makes and they made, for example, star diamond, or sapphire 2...

no question: SD and Sapphire 2 are completely different from Citrine regarding the programs!


regards,
Robert

[Karmazen & Oliver]

the doubt this in that the differences in the test bt-2450 are too disparate as for not keeping them in mind... it´s a lot of diferent points of ELO: and it represents that citrine solves very well many tactical positions in time of real game ...

Ok, so please post your results (2450 and 2630) so that we can see the differences...

you can see this:

http://www.schachcomputer.info/html/bt2 ... ungen.html
(down in the web pag... excel file with a lot of computer chess...)



I insert this capture in some days ago...
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2512 ... rambb4.jpg

(you don´t have Citrine, I don´t have star ruby... these test ... they were made by somebody, I do text bt-2450 & bt-2630 in citrine only... )

I believe that citrine has the algorithms optimized for a semifast games, which is it more fast ?, perhaps the solution goes to match those two computers to rhythms of 15 min / game and 30 min / game. and to see like it is unwrapped... ( exits some match N.Citrine versus Star Ruby or N. obsidian ??? )

but you should be aware, that you would have to play many games to clearly verify a difference (PC engine freaks claim, that you need at least 100, to eliminate most statistical inaccuracy; the more, the better)

Ok, that would be perfect, but I don't believe in the chances... in the programming everything obeys a certain reason... I think that a match without book, from initial post, fo example 7 or 9 games it´s interesting ...

and if citrine wins enough games, I don't believe that citrine wins the games thanks to the book, the book is a disaster, ( it is possible that it loses some games "thanks" to the book... )

this would be (even more!) true for Star Ruby and Obsidian, as their books are surely worse (and smaller) than Citrine's. Steve already had shown (some time ago), that some lines had been improved in the Citrine.

YES, if, but if we have the bad lucky that citrine enters in some of the 7 (well-known) bug-books (or more) that it has in the book, it will lose at once... the curious thing is that playing among them, they will never enter in the errors of the book citrine ... those (bugs) can forced to novag to send the engineers to spain to repair (upgrade) the faulty units ... ( of course, it is not for my... I prefer old well-known citrine that new citrine to evaluate ... )

to eliminate the influence of the library, both computers should be given identical openings (playing each line with white and black)

... the ideal thing to begin the games, outside of the book, as?... (we are) entering in the setup and "going out" of the setup with the initial position, (it is not necessary to move the pieces, only to act with the king and to leave the setup, later to act in the black king and citrine will begin to think, but without using the book, you can also activate the auto-mode, so that citrine vrs citrine with white and black, then citrine will be outside of the book and it will play without it... do you knows surprising for me...?

[d]rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/4p3/8/8/3P4/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1

in levels: C3 (5min/game), C5 (30 mint/game) and A7 (40 mov/2 h.).. citrine plays (out-book) with white:

1. e3 ¡? ... and the answer with black,
1. ..., e6 ¡?, but the cautions don´t finish here yet...

after this ...

2. e3 ¡? ... and
2. ..., d7 ¡?,

later with both colors citrine it moves the knights, ... way~style...

[Event "Novag-Chessboard"]
[Site "Novag-Chessboard"]
[Date "2008.11.04"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Oliver´s Citrine UCB auto 1min"]
[Black "Oliver´s Citrine UCB auto 1min"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "16"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]

1. d3 e6 2. e3 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. a3 O-O 6. Be2 a6 7. Bd2 Bd7 8. O-O
Nc6 *

For my, it is a surprise, the old computers don't usually play in that ... style.

[d]r2q1rk1/1ppbbppp/p1nppn2/8/8/P1NPPN2/1PPBBPPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 9

...it can be interesting to see like other computers would act without book from the initial position versus citrine... match ?, because ... this gives a slow (ly?) game as a result, because the style of citrine programming makes it play to the defensive and hoping the other player assumes more risks, this it is good to play against human, because it is possible that they make some tactical error during the attack, but to face against herself it is not the best tactics... uhmm well, perhaps yes?... if the game finished 0.5-0.5... ; -)

Of course the Citrine program could be modified/improved, which might cause the improvement in BT2450, but its not really new...
Robert
P.S.: Or does the latest series have a different program?

Indeed, if the program has been modified?, the program is not the same, truth is´t ...?

please read my posting clearly: i wrote, it is basically the same! This does not mean, it is identical...

it´s a interesant coment... they are semantic appreciations, let us hope the blood doesn't arrive at the river... (metaphor?), Well, for my, any modification that implies a difference of 70 points of elo, in test bt-2450 is enough, to consider it that is not the same program, neither so at least resemblance programs...

in fact, I believe that all the programs of oneself company looks like each other a little, basically he/she or they is/are the same programmer, all the novag computers have a similar style, but in this model it has even been more accused... that style...

I don't know if the new Citrines brings the same program, but I can assure you that in "my citrine"..., I see remarkable differences among the elections moves that it makes and they made, for example, star diamond, or sapphire 2...

no question: SD and Sapphire 2 are completely different from Citrine regarding the programs!

(I referred to their game style), I meant that say that the citrine game is quite less aggressive in the opening and middle game, with what really believes problems to the human player, citrine it is more humble and its programming makes it don´t take a risk in excess, this causes that it doesn't create objective of attack, changes of pieces, ... it is not believed evident weaknesses and it is not governed by the classic principles of occupying the center of the board with panws, citrine gladly allows the human to occupy a lot more space, it stays to the expectation, it is something surprising for the classic novag programming...

I meant that the citrine plays "seem" more human-moves and although it can be chance, because they are relatively few analyzed games, it seems to avoid some strategic reasons and their plays have strategic foundations in some opens, out of the book, in spite of having an inferior level "supposedly" to those famous computers chess novag, this a game "less" computer-style... in other words, it is easy to "know" that that this thinking star diamond or shappire II, some clasic methods can be applied, it is not so simple to apply them in the case of citrine... at least it stops my...

regards,
Robert

Ok. basically and the same and indentical ...regards.

bye from spain. oliver.

Postcript: if somebody want do a test match Citrine versus (others novags) SR or Obsidian... without-book... initial positions.