On discussing clones

[bob]

I think that it's fair to say that from around 1960, every program has used ideas taken from other programs - and open-source does has obvious drawbacks - think what would happen to your income if a good open source computer based training package that taught computing appeared on the scene...

I like your choice of words, "Taken", and opposed to "Borrowed", Which I heard used in the past. Like they are really going to give it back! As to the second part of your statement, I don't think much would happen. People would still pay for what they could get for free. That's why Linux has not displaced Windows even in the Server Room yet. On the Desktop they still have a longer way to go. Sad really when you think that Unix based systems were there from the very early days.

If you look around, linux is displacing windows in the server world every day. The market share is growing steadily...

[bob]

...Naum's status is unknown to me. If it is a clone, it will be discovered. If not, so much the better. But not allowing the discussion here really tends to render CCC as irrelevant... Food for thought...

Naum's status is unknown for me too. I haven't seen the smallest part of evidence it is a clone. So speculating about if it is is just a waste of time. To bring up rumors about is possibly a violation of the charter but surely something dishonest.

I'm personally not sure about Rybka. However, I have nothing to make a public statement about it. Therefore I simply shut up.

Discussions about clones haven't been disallowed and they aren't. Just to accuse someone that he made a clone ("Crafty is a Fritz clone!!!") is simply stupid and most likely a violation of the charter.

Not very moderative

Volker

Such a claim would not bother me at all, as it is easily disproved. But then again, _I_ would actually respond to the accusation, and answer questions as they are asked. You get my drift...

Sometimes silence can be "deafening"...

[michiguel]

If the general feeling here is that discussing clones is a no-no here, then I am more than willing to take my discussions back to r.g.c.c where while we have to live with excessive noise, we don't have to live with excessive "thought police" running around.

Good idea!
Everybody can take "gossips", "rumors", "speculations" or "smears" to rgcc and keep
evidence here.

Miguel

[bob]

The truth is that recent and current moderators handle cloning issues clearly differently than earlier moderators. Has the charter changed ?

We know from experience that there are people who dismiss all proof as inadequate, so the recent requirement that all and conclusive proof must be offered with the very first posting about a clone, is no guarantee that the thread will not disappear within 5 minutes.

of course there was no such requirement made by us
the thread in question was allowed to run for days with no clone evidence given except for some weak speculation that Mr. X also Thinks it is a clone

Let's keep this 100% honest. The above statement is _false_. I had read this thread, and the "moderation" happened overnight. Not over "for days"... I had not even seen what Vincent wrote because it was removed within hours of it being posted...

if debatable evidence is offered that an engine is a clone then the thread can run for weeks even months
and the evidence need not be offered in the very first post
but Prudence would dictate that before an accusation is made then at least some shred of debatable evidence be forth coming shortly .
it serves no purpose to make wild accusations and then offer no evidence at all and it has in fact resulted in a rash of member complaints to come in to us

i wonder what a member created poll on the acceptability of posting clone accusations here with no evidence what-so-ever would reveal?

i would be interested to see a poll like that

Regards
Steve

I would not care. Because I _know_ why CCC was originally created. It was _not_ to create a "sterile environment" where the faint at heart can dwell. This forum was created _by programmers_. What the non-programmers want does not matter to me at all. They are free to read and participate when they want. I do not want to see them dictate what can or can not be discussed here. If this continues, you are going to have a forum with _zero_ technical content because the authors are going to disappear...

[AdminX]

I think that it's fair to say that from around 1960, every program has used ideas taken from other programs - and open-source does has obvious drawbacks - think what would happen to your income if a good open source computer based training package that taught computing appeared on the scene...

I like your choice of words, "Taken", and opposed to "Borrowed", Which I heard used in the past. Like they are really going to give it back! As to the second part of your statement, I don't think much would happen. People would still pay for what they could get for free. That's why Linux has not displaced Windows even in the Server Room yet. On the Desktop they still have a longer way to go. Sad really when you think that Unix based systems were there from the very early days.

If you look around, linux is displacing windows in the server world every day. The market share is growing steadily...

Yes, just not fast enough for me.

[sje]

I think that it's fair to say that from around 1960, every program has used ideas taken from other programs - and open-source does has obvious drawbacks - think what would happen to your income if a good open source computer based training package that taught computing appeared on the scene...

I like your choice of words, "Taken", and opposed to "Borrowed", Which I heard used in the past. Like they are really going to give it back! As to the second part of your statement, I don't think much would happen. People would still pay for what they could get for free. That's why Linux has not displaced Windows even in the Server Room yet. On the Desktop they still have a longer way to go. Sad really when you think that Unix based systems were there from the very early days.

If you look around, linux is displacing windows in the server world every day. The market share is growing steadily...

Yes, just not fast enough for me.

Hey, I'm doing my bit to help -- my torrent server uploads up to 20 GB a day of Ubuntu and Debian ISO disk images.

[Graham Banks]

This forum was created _by programmers_. What the non-programmers want does not matter to me at all. They are free to read and participate when they want. I do not want to see them dictate what can or can not be discussed here. If this continues, you are going to have a forum with _zero_ technical content because the authors are going to disappear...

Perhaps a compromise would be to discuss cloning issues in the programmers subforum where the "experts" are?

Although non-programmers obviously wouldn't have a hobby without the programmers, likewise the programmers would be much worse off without those enthusiasts who are non-programmers.
Yet it says a lot when the non-programmer enthusiasts are repeatedly reminded about their inferior status.

[Steve B]

Let's keep this 100% honest. The above statement is _false_. I had read this thread, and the "moderation" happened overnight. Not over "for days"... I had not even seen what Vincent wrote because it was removed within hours of it being posted...

the above statement is 100 % honest
the thread started on Thursday and was locked today
thats three days...i did not say four days..i said it ran for days

the point of my reply to your question about Clone discussions is to answer that clone discussions are permitted but not wild accusation where no evidence is offered
especially when followed up by a number of member complaints
that's the moderation philosophy of this team

Steve

[Matthias Gemuh]

Let's keep this 100% honest. The above statement is _false_. I had read this thread, and the "moderation" happened overnight. Not over "for days"... I had not even seen what Vincent wrote because it was removed within hours of it being posted...

the above statement is 100 % honest
the thread started on Thursday and was locked today
thats three days...i did not say four days..i said it ran for days

Steve

It did not even last as long as half a day.

Matthias.

[Steve B]

The first post in the thread was Thursday
the thread was locked Today
three days

the thread was moderated for several reasons including personal attacks,OT nature AND the clone issue

Steve