Operator Error at a WCCC

[Steve B]

hardly a day dosent go by when i dont let loose a mouse slip when playing online chess
sadly...some of my best moves have been mouse slips...
anyway...i was wondering..since the WCCC has human operators who must make the computers move on to a real chess board.... what are the rules for human errors such as an
obviously wrong move made by an operator on the game board?

if the Engine is showing one move and the human operator mistakenly makes another..which move prevails?

Thanks
Steve

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

The engine move counts in the regular tournament.

In the blitz this would be an instant loss.

[bob]

hardly a day dosent go by when i dont let loose a mouse slip when playing online chess
sadly...some of my best moves have been mouse slips...
anyway...i was wondering..since the WCCC has human operators who must make the computers move on to a real chess board.... what are the rules for human errors such as an
obviously wrong move made by an operator on the game board?

if the Engine is showing one move and the human operator mistakenly makes another..which move prevails?

Thanks
Steve

The engine's move. If the mistake is discovered later, the game has to back up to the point where the error was made and is restarted with the correct move played. Humans do not get the chance to change the outcome of a game by playing a different move than the program chooses.

It's always been like this at CCC events. If you play in a human event, things get a whole lot messier and the bad move can actually stand if the TD says so.

[Steve B]

thanks

so if the engines move always dictates...what exactly is the reasoning behind the requirement to have a human operator at the WCCC make the move on a regular chess board??

is this is a ceremonious procedure perhaps going back to the early days of these events where the engine author was usually the one in attendance or required to be in attendance?
or just a requirement to display the current position on the board so others can follow the game ?
you dont really need two operators for each game to do that

Just Curious Regards
Steve

[bob]

thanks

so if the engines move always dictates...what exactly is the reasoning behind the requirement to have a human operator at the WCCC make the move on a regular chess board??

Stupidity?

Stubbornness?

Refusal to accept change?

Who knows? We have been trying to make automated move entry happen since the late 70's. The ICCA/ICGA always finds some reason why it can't be done.

is this is a ceremonious procedure perhaps going back to the early days of these events where the engine author was usually the one in attendance or required to be in attendance?
or just a requirement to display the current position on the board so others can follow the game ?
you dont really need two operators for each game to do that

Just Curious Regards
Steve

All good questions. All can be answered by any of the answers I gave above. There is no reason to have a human in the loop. It introduces errors, and causes lost time here and there when someone forgets to hit the clock. Etc. It is an archaic approach that the ICGA simply refuses to eliminate...

thank goodness for the ACCA and CCT events.

[krazyken]

thanks

so if the engines move always dictates...what exactly is the reasoning behind the requirement to have a human operator at the WCCC make the move on a regular chess board??

is this is a ceremonious procedure perhaps going back to the early days of these events where the engine author was usually the one in attendance or required to be in attendance?

Just Curious Regards
Steve

Back in ancient times, computer networking was quite challenging with many different types of computers, and chess interfaces varied widely, so getting two of them to talk even if they could be networked was unlikely. Since then progress was made in networking and interfacing, but not in bureaucracy.

[bob]

thanks

so if the engines move always dictates...what exactly is the reasoning behind the requirement to have a human operator at the WCCC make the move on a regular chess board??

is this is a ceremonious procedure perhaps going back to the early days of these events where the engine author was usually the one in attendance or required to be in attendance?

Just Curious Regards
Steve

Back in ancient times, computer networking was quite challenging with many different types of computers, and chess interfaces varied widely, so getting two of them to talk even if they could be networked was unlikely. Since then progress was made in networking and interfacing, but not in bureaucracy.

Even in the last 70's, RS232C was well defined and used everywhere. This is what Ken Thompson and I proposed as the interconnection approach back then. The excuse was always "but not all dedicated chess computers have an RS232C port so how will they play?" Today the excuse is just that it is too much trouble.

[mjlef]

Answer: beer and wine. Without human operators, there would be no need to travel huge distances and enjoy the tournament over alcoholic beverages!

Actually, there are lots of online competitions. But WCCC has never been run that way. Perhaps the human operator requirement is just some attempt to see us all in real life, and it does allow any type of hardware to enter without the risk of a virus filled network.

[bob]

Answer: beer and wine. Without human operators, there would be no need to travel huge distances and enjoy the tournament over alcoholic beverages!

Actually, there are lots of online competitions. But WCCC has never been run that way. Perhaps the human operator requirement is just some attempt to see us all in real life, and it does allow any type of hardware to enter without the risk of a virus filled network.

One could always require that author/etc attends the event, but getting rid of the move relay nonsense would be a gigantic step forward don't you think?

[hgm]

I agree. I think the optimal solution is to use an on-site ICS to which participants, if they want, will have access through the LAN. And if they don't want, they will get a sensor board in front of them that is connected to that ICS, which they can use to make the ICS aware of their moves, and on which they can perform the moves of their opponent as they view them on the projection screen that is displaying the positions as the ICS has them (and as the outside world will view them too, usng WinBoard toobserve the ICS game).